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View Full Version : Religion in society of lack thereof....


rhiley_08j
02-26-2007, 04:49 PM
Is it just me or has religion today become a thing of the past? It almost seems that being spiritual has become not sociably acceptable. Those that try to hold on to beliefs and keep their morals intact are shunned upon because they are accused of not being open-minded. Why is it that what was once considered wrong is now considered right or acceptable?

I understand that many have lost their faith in organized religion, and to be honest, you can't really blame them. By why when they loose their faith in religion, to they also abandon their believe in God? It is not God's word, or the examples that his son provided us that have gone wrong it is man's abandonement of those words or their manipulation of those words, that have created the state that society is in today. Man will surely be his own demise. But, is it really too late. If one doesn't want to be involved in organized religion because of all the false teachings, why can't we still live by the examples that were set out for us, such as the golden rule, and love thy neighbour. Surely with philosophies like that we could all make the world a better place.

Please when posting on this, don't bash others beliefs, and please be respectful of others opinions. This is not intended to cause a rift between people on this forum. I am just curious how others feel about the spiritual decline of society and how we might be able to make things better.

dittydottie
02-26-2007, 05:00 PM
Why did they take religion out of the schools? I remember every morning we had the lord's prayer,oh canada, and a cod liver oil pill. ( this was not yesterday.) I also remember having to go to a different school because of my religion. When my daughters were in school they went to a mixed religion school(protesant/catholic) and everyday they had to leave school half hour before others because they were not the other religion that was being taught at that time. I feel that this is something which should be available for all. Maybe just maybe kids would get off on the right step and it not be something extra parents would have to do if they didn't want to.
It should be encouraged and introduced to all.

Mandi
02-26-2007, 05:03 PM
I don't go to church, but have a strong faith. I've done several things that the bible says I shouldn't have, some I regret, some I don't. I'm not so much concerned with the lack of religion as the lack of morals, lack of respect, lack of basic integrity that some people show. It's as though this day and age, it's normal to benumb emotionally, and not to be considerate of others.

user5624
02-26-2007, 05:06 PM
Mmm religious discussion, this usually ends bad :)

But many today, don't even believe in God. Or the God the church preaches about. I think one thing about organized religion that some, as I'm one of them, find offensive is that people from said churches can come to our doors, be pushy, critical of our beliefs when we try to politely tell them no and why. I'm very against people pushing their beliefs off on others. A person doesn't have to go to church to have morals. Be polite, don't steal, cheat, lie, rape, murder, and so on, to me, is common sense. I know many that go to church, and I have nothing against them or their church. But I do have something against what they do when they try to force their beliefs off on me or criticize my beliefs and so on.

Society has very diverse beliefs today. Christianity is only one of many religions common among the people of society today.

I also agree with religion being kept out of schools.

eugeneb
02-26-2007, 05:17 PM
Why did they take religion out of the schools? I remember every morning we had the lord's prayer,oh canada, and a cod liver oil pill. ( this was not yesterday.) I also remember having to go to a different school because of my religion. When my daughters were in school they went to a mixed religion school(protesant/catholic) and everyday they had to leave school half hour before others because they were not the other religion that was being taught at that time. I feel that this is something which should be available for all. Maybe just maybe kids would get off on the right step and it not be something extra parents would have to do if they didn't want to.
It should be encouraged and introduced to all.
you sound like you grew up in the same time frame as i did
i used to hate those pills

sjchickie
02-26-2007, 06:19 PM
Religion has gone out the window. This goes back to the post about them changing the city transit buses from merry Christmas to Happy Holidays. Its sad yes for some but Canada and the USA or the westernized society as we will call it is SO incredibly diverse that having white religious beliefs back in schools or in the public would lead to nothing but a fight. Think about it we have muslims, jews, jehovah's, and all these other religions that are so different from what we know here in NB that if we were to add it back it would be an uproar and so it should. I was catholic growing up but have turned away from that religion for my own reasons.
I agree with NBCHICK morals should not be soely based on your religious beliefs as we all a very different. You do not have to go to church to believe in something and I think that if you were to go to Montreal, Toronto , or Vancouver you would see that religion is their for those who want it. Catholic schools with uniforms for those who choose that path, public for the others, NB is just so incredibly white that we are lagging behind the rest of Canada who has been diverse for ages. I think diversity is an amazing thing and can help bring us altogether. Religion should not have 1 thing to do with government,politics, and society and should be left for those who want to practice. Oh which reminded me that Toronto has now opened its first school for native children, it has schools for french children etc etc. We just dont have the demand here

Rae_Maill
02-26-2007, 06:25 PM
I dont' think it is necessary anymore to go about with the need to tell everyone how you went to church or that you prayed, I think most now find that their relationship with whichever god they pray to is a personal thing. As long as I know that i have done good and lived within my moral code I am fine.

puppyluv
02-26-2007, 06:28 PM
I think the issue is people put religion and belief in God in teh same pile, and it isnt always the same thing. I beleive in God 110% and I am proud of that. I am saved, I tell people about Him, and I pray for people. But that being said, I think the main post is wrong. I beleive more people go to church, more believe. There are so many things in the world that seem to overshadow God, but that is what is is..Seems..just seems. It doesnt, there is nothing as powerful or awesome as He is.
I will go to Heaven, I will see my Mom, and hopefully, a good many of you there as well.

user5624
02-26-2007, 06:32 PM
So if we don't believe in your God, we won't go to your heaven? Is that what you're saying? That is exactly what I meant about others pushing their beliefs off on people.

I don't know, just something about what you said puppyluv, didn't come off very well to me. Praying for people is great, it shows you care about them. But to feel ashamed while reading your post because I don't agree with it, is exactly what I'm against.

sjchickie
02-26-2007, 06:35 PM
I agree NBCHICK. I didnt completely understand what she was trying to get across? God is God to those who believe in him. However this is suppose to stay impartial so I am not interested in divulging weather or not i believe as its unimportant. Religion is prevalent in society if you want it to be, the resources are there if you want them. If you choose not to forgo a relationship with god thats ok too. But praying for people who do not believe will not do them any good :)

user5624
02-26-2007, 06:42 PM
I agree NBCHICK. I didnt completely understand what she was trying to get across? God is God to those who believe in him. However this is suppose to stay impartial so I am not interested in divulging weather or not i believe as its unimportant. Religion is prevalent in society if you want it to be, the resources are there if you want them. If you choose not to forgo a relationship with god thats ok too. But praying for people who do not believe will not do them any good :)

There's a whole debate in itself, even for those who believe, does praying do any good? :) I simply see praying for people as well wishes. I don't put much more into it then that. But if the praying is for the target person to see the way of God and so on, I see that as wanting to manipulate somebody. Praying to me I guess, is just all thought.

Chinna Dah
02-26-2007, 07:02 PM
Here is a question to you all

If a 2 year old baby just comes out of a life saving surgery after having a deadly cancer removed, he comes out fine and healthy, do you get down on your hands and knees and thank god that all is well and he will live?

but do you also thank god for giving him the cancer in the first place?

If god was so great, that 2 year old should not have had cancer to begin with, that baby did nothing in this world to deserve it.

Cherry Pop
02-26-2007, 07:03 PM
What I get a kick out of is you can't talk about the Bible in school but you can talk about our religions like witchcraft(I'm just using this as an example, I have nothing against witches)! The reason I use this example is that a friend of mine's child was in a class where they were reading Harry Potter and they started to discuss Witchcraft, well the little girl brought up about her beliefs (christianity) and she was told they were not allowed to talk about the bible or God in class. I just think that is plain wrong. If your allowed to talk about one religion why can't you talk about another one?
As for me, I have my beliefs but I respect others beliefs as well. I don't know if this thread will get nasty or not but everyone should go by this: Just because it isn't your cup of tea doesn't mean you should throw it down the drain. That is my preaching for today!

Mandi
02-26-2007, 07:06 PM
Here is a question to you all

If a 2 year old baby just comes out of a life saving surgery after having a deadly cancer removed, he comes out fine and healthy, do you get down on your hands and knees and thank god that all is well and he will live?

but do you also thank god for giving him the cancer in the first place?

If god was so great, that 2 year old should not have had cancer to begin with, that baby did nothing in this world to deserve it.


Big picture, maybe he inspired someone to live a more fulfilling life?
There's not really a right or wrong answer. There's not really a right or wrong religion either. But I personally choose to believe in something, whether it be naive or not. Sure bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people ,but if life was peachy keen all the time for everyone who reads a bible to their kids or practices any other religion... Well that to me just seems unrealistic.

puppyluv
02-26-2007, 07:35 PM
So if we don't believe in your God, we won't go to your heaven? Is that what you're saying? That is exactly what I meant about others pushing their beliefs off on people.

I don't know, just something about what you said puppyluv, didn't come off very well to me. Praying for people is great, it shows you care about them. But to feel ashamed while reading your post because I don't agree with it, is exactly what I'm against.

That is your perogative. You feel how you feel and I feel how I feel. I believe in what the Bible says. You dont have to. And I pushed nothing. You took it that way. You can feel however you want, I wouldnt bother trying to change someones mind.

Lisa_morris
02-26-2007, 08:19 PM
My mom told me when I was younger that it is better to have no religion then to fight over one. I have studied alot of religions and find it all extremely interesting. I personally do not believe in God but do not judge others who do. Most of my friends come from VERY catholic familes, my step mother and sisters are Jehovahs witnesses and my grandmother is a Bahai. I think it is great that in todays world we can have our beliefs and not be judged. I dont believe in God but I do believe in morals. I have two children and I believe that they have a right to choose there own religion, my oldest daughter loves going to Sunday school, its her choice. As for the schools I can kinda see why they dont teach religion Im just happy as long as they teach morals. I do know that there are private Catholic schools, my friends daughter went to one.

Cod liver pills what a bad memory, one time I was complaining because I didnt want to take mine so my dad told me to bite it and it would taste better. Ill forever have that bad taste in my mouth.:)

Cherry Pop
02-26-2007, 09:49 PM
Lisa what is Bahai? I don't think I've ever heard of it.

Lisa_morris
02-26-2007, 10:09 PM
The Bahia faith is a more about unity than anything, they believe in peace no matter who you are or where your from. Many people in my family are Bahai's. I grew up with this faith being taught, its where most of my morals come from. My grandmother has gone all over the world teaching people about the faith. This link will better explain it. http://www.bahai.org/faq/facts/bahai_faith

For a global society to flourish, Bahá’u’lláh said, it must be based on certain fundamental principles. They include the elimination of all forms of prejudice; full equality between the sexes; recognition of the essential oneness of the world’s great religions; the elimination of extremes of poverty and wealth; universal education; the harmony of science and religion; a sustainable balance between nature and technology; and the establishment of a world federal system, based on collective security and the oneness of humanity.

sjmb
02-27-2007, 12:15 AM
I have strong faith in God not because of church not because someone tells me just because, of life.. Throughout my life I have come to the conclusion there is something bigger than me that helps me; not when I want it but because I really needed it . And I say it is God. If you ask me that is what I would tell you….. If you want me to prove it I can give you stories. A lot of them…. I can be a slow learner sometimes and you can explain it anyway you want but the end result it was bigger than me and I choose the name God,
I go to church, not as much as I should , it isn’t the church it’s because I am lazy, kind of like exercising once you start making excuses …….well ……. But when I do, I am like a lot of people… I sit in the pew, only half hearing but every once in awhile a preacher is up there saying it and the hair is standing up in the back of my neck cause I figure he’s talking about me (even though I know he doesn’t know me) so, I pay attention and you know, I’m not offended, I take it…think it over figure it’s a my bad and maybe work at correcting it. I think we can all use a swift kick every now and again. Can’t we?
So you will have to excuse me where is the argument can’t see it ….if the name you use isn’t God yet you get help from something bigger than yourself but use a different name, if your god preaches love one another , and if you want to pray to your god for my well being then bless you or what ever term you use; I can use all the help I can get, and If I don’t get to your heaven but make it to mine that’s O.K too…
Even though you use a different name but believe in a higher power with the same teachings I think you will find faith in whatever name you use which is alive and thriving in a lot of us …… just a NB incredibly white religious belief

Cherry Pop
02-27-2007, 12:33 AM
The Bahia faith is a more about unity than anything, they believe in peace no matter who you are or where your from. Many people in my family are Bahai's. I grew up with this faith being taught, its where most of my morals come from. My grandmother has gone all over the world teaching people about the faith. This link will better explain it. http://www.bahai.org/faq/facts/bahai_faith

For a global society to flourish, Bahá’u’lláh said, it must be based on certain fundamental principles. They include the elimination of all forms of prejudice; full equality between the sexes; recognition of the essential oneness of the world’s great religions; the elimination of extremes of poverty and wealth; universal education; the harmony of science and religion; a sustainable balance between nature and technology; and the establishment of a world federal system, based on collective security and the oneness of humanity.

Thanks! I found this interesting and I hadn't heard of it before. I like learning new things.

ceg
02-27-2007, 02:09 AM
I don't believe in any god, heaven, or hell. I honestly never have, even as a child. I was always extremely uncomfortable in church and sunday school. I don't know why and I probably never will. I don't find any joy, happiness, or comfort in religion.

I've never had a problem with anyone who believes, as long as it makes them happy then that's great. I've just never enjoyed the religious few who feel the need to tell me that my lack of belief is wrong. I would never do that to someone and I can't understand why they do it to me.

Although I don't agree with religion in school. There are too many varying religions to make sure that you have someone at the school that can teach each one. At my sisters school there is Catholic, Christian, Budhist, Wiccan, Jewish, Hindu and more. And that's only a school with 600 students. You can't just teach the most popular religions because it can be insulting to others.

Cartersmom
02-27-2007, 02:34 AM
hmm.
Well, I don't go to church, I do not pray, I don't need spiritual enlightenment , and I am strong enough mentally to hopefully handle whatever comes my way ( as opposed to "needing to believe" when things get bad)
I believe in karma, reincarnation, and am open to the idea of a divine being .

What I don't like (and this most certainly is not directed at anyone in this thread) are the religious fanatics who seem to be the most judgemental of all, and the folks who think it's fine to back-stab people monday thru Saturday as long as they go to church on Sunday to clear their conscience! That makes me physically ill, and let's face it, I think we are all familiar with this type. They usually are also the same folk who bring up the Lord at every opportunity , trying to convert people? trying to make people think they are trustworthy and honest? Quite the opposite!

I am all about integrity, the Golden Rule, and what the commandments advocate. 100%. In fact, I practice these every day and don't need to take any time off for confession. When you live good and true and genuine, there is no need.
I guess where I differ from most people is that I think the commandments, and indeed the Bible, is a book, written by regular people, in such a way to help keep people in line and afraid, and following the commandments, and being a good person out of fear. Instead of being a good person becasue it's the right thing to do. kwim?

I have had people actually look down on me becasue I don't go to church. And I feel differently towards them and quite sad for them that they cannot see the forest for the trees. So many bad people go to church only to be forgiven (? hopefully not - if you are truly wicked you deserve what's coming)
and then frown on those just trying to lead a good honest life.

Quite frankly I think religion has been responsible for most of the wars in our history, and am hoping that the world is not eradicated becasue of it.
How about respect for all.

user5624
02-27-2007, 03:42 AM
hmm.
Well, I don't go to church, I do not pray, I don't need spiritual enlightenment , and I am strong enough mentally to hopefully handle whatever comes my way ( as opposed to "needing to believe" when things get bad)
I believe in karma, reincarnation, and am open to the idea of a divine being .

What I don't like (and this most certainly is not directed at anyone in this thread) are the religious fanatics who seem to be the most judgemental of all, and the folks who think it's fine to back-stab people monday thru Saturday as long as they go to church on Sunday to clear their conscience! That makes me physically ill, and let's face it, I think we are all familiar with this type. They usually are also the same folk who bring up the Lord at every opportunity , trying to convert people? trying to make people think they are trustworthy and honest? Quite the opposite!

I am all about integrity, the Golden Rule, and what the commandments advocate. 100%. In fact, I practice these every day and don't need to take any time off for confession. When you live good and true and genuine, there is no need.
I guess where I differ from most people is that I think the commandments, and indeed the Bible, is a book, written by regular people, in such a way to help keep people in line and afraid, and following the commandments, and being a good person out of fear. Instead of being a good person becasue it's the right thing to do. kwim?

I have had people actually look down on me becasue I don't go to church. And I feel differently towards them and quite sad for them that they cannot see the forest for the trees. So many bad people go to church only to be forgiven (? hopefully not - if you are truly wicked you deserve what's coming)
and then frown on those just trying to lead a good honest life.

Quite frankly I think religion has been responsible for most of the wars in our history, and am hoping that the world is not eradicated becasue of it.
How about respect for all.

Oh wow I agree with you %100 and I believe in the same things. All though I wasn't originally going to say anything about it, as I don't want to debate them or try to explain why mine are just as possible and so on.

Very good post, Cartersmom

amethyst
02-27-2007, 06:28 AM
I believe in God, but i don't believe in Religion. I'm Catholic and don't practice it. One of my children are baptized, the other is not. My father rams religion down my throat at every possible opportunity and all it does is push me further away.

The child that is not baptized...is asking questions about God. So we've Had discussions. I've told him about the 10 commandments. Then he got scared for me. I've broken one or two..who hasn't? I've said some nasty things about my parents..(honor thy mother and father) and i swear like a trooper when i'm upset (thou shall not take the name of the lord thy god in vain)
I'm just going off on a tangent.

Taking religion out of the courts. Wasn't it somewhere in the states where outside of a courthouse there was a statue or something of the 10 commandments and someone wanted it removed because they found it offensive? I'm sorry..but the 10 commandments are what the judicial system is based on.
I'm running off at the mouth again..

I believe in God,,i don't believe in Religion. There are too many out there. How do you know which one is right? You don't. You take a chance.

magoosmomma
02-27-2007, 08:31 AM
When I first read this I wasnt going to get into it because any discussion of religion can get nasty but so far...so good

I do believe in God, I believe there is a heaven and hell.. and sometimes my faith isnt as strong as it should be but I am human ..it human nature to question and have doubts.. During hard times in my life I have been comforted by my faith when I felt like nothing would help me through..Do I go to church..no ...thats because I have seen too many "Sunday Christians" who preach one thing Sunday morning and come Sunday afternoon are doing the exact thing they preached against. I would love to be able to find a church though with that being said
A few years ago my nephew who was 20 months old at the time contracted Ecoli and spent 12 weeks of his life in the IWK..for the first few of those weeks he spent it fighting for his life. Dr's had all said he would not make it through because of all the damage the ecoli had caused .My brother (who is a minister) and my SIL stayed at his bedside the entire time and never once did they lose thier faith...He had people praying for him all over..not just here but all across Canada and in the US.. and he made it through..some people may say it was a medical miracle..because that is what his dr's at the IWK still call it but I believe it was God who saved him..

baseball 23
02-27-2007, 09:05 AM
If your nephew hadn't of made it, would it have been God that killed him? Just asking, don't make anything of it. Or if another child, exact same situation was in the bed beside him, one lived and the other died, did God love one more than the other? Was it because one person prayed harder than another? Wondering....?

Lisa_morris
02-27-2007, 09:18 AM
Like Ive stated before I dont believe in god, religion, heaven or hell. But I do find it all interesting. I think its great that in todays society we can actually post our views without being stoned for what we believe. Ive been sick and when I had my first daughter my kidney almost ruptured, some of the nurses said someone must have been looking out for me. I believe it was my own inner strength that got me through. Sure there may be a god, no one can say whether there is or not. Im not going to tell others that they are wrong just like I dont want people to say Im wrong. Im not going to question others beliefs, its there faith and who am I to judge. I lived with my dad for a few years and his wife and my sisters are Jehovah witnesses, I dont believe their religion is bad but I do believe she took it to far. She made my childhood miserable because I refused to become a witness. So Im a worldly person. Im happy for who I am. I do have to thank her for one thing though, when I was younger I never stood up for myself but after what she put me through I now am a much stronger person and have very stong beliefs that are my own.

magoosmomma
02-27-2007, 10:44 AM
If your nephew hadn't of made it, would it have been God that killed him? Just asking, don't make anything of it. Or if another child, exact same situation was in the bed beside him, one lived and the other died, did God love one more than the other? Was it because one person prayed harder than another? Wondering....?
It has nothing to do with praying harder or better than someone I dont believe..I cant say I wouldnt have questioned why it happened or even been angry .. There are things that just cant be explained.. but again I beleive in everything happens for a reason.

serialspell
02-27-2007, 11:11 AM
o.k my 2 cents on this, from what i see lately alot of people only go to church because they believe they have to(usually the ones in their pews looking at their watch waiting for the service to be over with) very sad, just like the people that live by the book that do not really believe in it, now i am somewhat of a religious person(believe in god and know the difference between right and wrong) however i do not think that my beliefs are for everyone, no matter what race or faith we all see our gods in a different way and have many names for him. somthing that does bug me though and this goes for believers and non(not all people) is that when somthing goes wrong in life it is usually gods fault, sickness, war, poverty, and the list goes on and on, but when good things happen why is he not considered to have a hand in it?

someone else said it perfectly on here(very touchy subject)

dittydottie
02-27-2007, 11:15 AM
Well ok my turn I just hope and pray that this post soon ends. It is not a very nice subject,people are making other people look bad.We are all intitled to our beliefs and our thoughts, however we should not look at others differently because of theirs.

serialspell
02-27-2007, 11:35 AM
Well ok my turn I just hope and pray that this post soon ends. It is not a very nice subject,people are making other people look bad.We are all intitled to our beliefs and our thoughts, however we should not look at others differently because of theirs.

well said

subaru2222
02-27-2007, 11:43 AM
People have said in this post about people going to Church on Sunday then the rest of the week they do and act as they please. they think they can do any thing or whatever they want because on Sunday they will go to Church and it makes it all better. Well they are wrong. Its better to not go to Church and live a good life all the time then only be good for an hour a day sitting there just counting the seconds to get out.

It all comes down to common sense. The Bible pounders so to speak will always be right in their own mind and no matter what anyone says you will never be able to make them have the common sense they need. I have my beliefs and they are mine not yours I don't try to force them down your throat so do the same.

And the brainwashed kids that come to your door trying to get you to switch to their religion lol you just have to laugh sometimes if they had an independent thought they would realize what they are doing is wrong. They can believe however they want I have nothing against that but I and 100% of the people do not want to hear it.

What will happen when they find life on Mars. I don't mean an alien walking around but even a one-cell organisms is life. Well that will throw a monkey wrench in religion.

Lisa_morris
02-27-2007, 01:00 PM
And the brainwashed kids that come to your door trying to get you to switch to their religion lol you just have to laugh sometimes if they had an independent thought they would realize what they are doing is wrong. They can believe however they want I have nothing against that but I and 100% of the people do not want to hear it.

I have heard people go on about "brainwashed kids" and it upsets me. My sisters have been said to be one of these so called kids. There not what so ever. Just because it is not your religion does not give anyone a right to assume what others do, or question why people believe. Im not fighting Im just stating a point. Some religions have such a bad name, and its sad watching some of the kids get made fun of. When I was in school I had to constantly stick up for my sisters because of their religion.

Mandi
02-27-2007, 01:08 PM
If your nephew hadn't of made it, would it have been God that killed him? Just asking, don't make anything of it. Or if another child, exact same situation was in the bed beside him, one lived and the other died, did God love one more than the other? Was it because one person prayed harder than another? Wondering....?

You know... I was watching Oprah's special last night, and one little girl from Africa, a poverty striken place... Said it pretty darn good when she was desscribing how she watched her father murder her mother and then kill himself when she was five. She said ' I do not hate him, I belive God has a reason for everything.'

baseball 23
02-27-2007, 01:10 PM
Everyone is brainwashed one way or another - that's just someone's term referring to someone elses beliefs that they themselves don't share. Some are brainwashed with religion, others not to have one. or could be other subjects, people are brought up conservative or liberal, consumer/environmental...etc. Everyone, in part, is a product of their environment, our views are shaped by our expeirences - some in church, others w/out - hence brainwashed. A more correct term may be conditioning. Nobody is wrong, everyone is entitled to their own view. Its those that would not allow a different point of view that should be condenmed.

Also - there are some religions that accept that we, here on earth, are likely a part of something bigger and likely life does exist elsewhere, otherwise, what would the purpose of creating elsewhere. In other words, if God alone created us here and the earht here and no other life existed elsewhere, why create such a vaste and endless space? Wouldn't it be inefficient to do so? If ineffecient is it no longer perfect? If not so, then there must be some reason to the vasteness and likely we are not alone.

Deep, i know. Sorry.

jdcb
02-27-2007, 01:18 PM
Here is a question to you all

If a 2 year old baby just comes out of a life saving surgery after having a deadly cancer removed, he comes out fine and healthy, do you get down on your hands and knees and thank god that all is well and he will live?

but do you also thank god for giving him the cancer in the first place?

If god was so great, that 2 year old should not have had cancer to begin with, that baby did nothing in this world to deserve it.

God didn't give him cancer. That is a common thing people say. But God can use ALL things for good. But he needs our hands to do it.

Mandi
02-27-2007, 01:21 PM
Ok going to get flamed. But there is definately other life out there. No doubt in my mind. We are litterally nothing in the big scheme of things, we're not even a spec of dust compared to how large 'space' is. It's truely unbelievable to have it scalled for you. I didn't see in the bible where it said that God didn't create anything else, but then I haven't read the thing from front to back .



On another note, I believe there are extremists. I was watching spouse swap a while ago with a Budhist family and a Christian family. The difference was like whoa, and I saw a lot I personally didn't like, but I can't decide how people praise their God.

jdcb
02-27-2007, 01:59 PM
I seen this thread last night before I went to bed and thought 'oh boy...' and left it at that. I just logged on and am impressed about how well it is actually going. I hope we can all keep it at that level.

Lets see, my opinions on the original subject. I think society has become a little picky and choosy. Should religion be kept out of schools and government, yes. I am a christian, I believe in God and his Son. Last night I was reading through the Canda Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Here I will quote section 2:

2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

a) freedom of conscience and religion;
b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
d) freedom of association.


I like this document and believe in it too. This tells me that all people have the right to whatever religion they choose and the right not to choose. As such one should not be chosen over the other in school. But, the picky choosy part is that may people only apply this to Christianity. Governments still take off Christian holidays, but are now trying to rename them, and shun people who want to celebrate it for what it is. I'm not even going to bring up the institution of marriage in this topic. But as someone else posted, they were allowed to freely discuss wikka in class at school, but not the Christian beliefs.

People who don't believe in God, will ask questions and make argurments against. But when we try to defend our faith we are often put down, called brainwashers, bible thumpers, etc. We are accused of trying to push our religion, when we're just trying to answer questions or explain what we believe. This happened right on page one with Puppyluv's post.

People also try to blame God for causeing bad things. People try to say that he causes evil. I don't believe (and here comes my opinion, not pushing it on anyone) that there is no such thing as truly evil. There is only an absesnce of God. The same way that if you think about it, darkness is only the absence of light. When you bring back the light, the darkness goes away. But when you push away the light, darkness and shadow can take hold.

One of the biggest parts of being Christian, and one that is often overlooked, is that it is not our place to judge. It says in the bible to take the plank out of your own eye before you try to remove the splinter from your friends. This means that you are not to judge others, as you yourself are not perfect, and not fit to judge. But still, this happens all to often.

I hope people can read this and see it as the way I feel, and realize that i am not trying to put down others beliefs. I work with someone who is Muslim, and think he's a great guy. We both know we have other beliefs and have no problem asking questions and discussing it. I have friends who are homosexual. I know what they believe, they know what I believe, and we respect that. And I don't judge him negativly for it.

Again, I know it's a little long, but i hope people can see that it is my opinion on the subject at hand. I am not trying to put down others, I am not trying to enforce my beliefs on others. I hope that this thread can continue to flow in the manner it has been with people expressing thier opinions, without attacking others for theirs.


Edit: Link to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/index.html

Lisa_morris
02-27-2007, 02:07 PM
Christmas is celebrated in schools, it is a christian holiday. Schools dont teach religion but I guess in some ways it is talked about and not just for example wicca, my daughter has learned more about Santa at school than at home. It just seems like God is not talked about. I for one think its great that my daughter can learn about all different religions so she can then pick the right one for her.

jdcb
02-27-2007, 02:11 PM
Right, but they're calling it "The Holidays" now, not christmas. As if renaming it, right...

And Santa isn't exactly a christian figurehead.

Cherry Pop
02-27-2007, 02:14 PM
Well I would agree that most of this thread is going well. Hey I even learned about a religion I never heard of before. However, I do have a problem with the people who posted that we are "brainwashed". I find that comment really disrespectful! I encourage those who posted that comment to go back and edit it because I find that comment is ruining this thread! It is for me at least.

As for me, yes I believe in God but that in no way makes me "brainwashed". I was brought up in a church but really found my "faith" through my life experiences rather than my church. In fact, I was so disappointed in the people at my church that claimed to be one way and acted the opposite that I stopped going to church for many years. Did that make me give up on God? No but I finally figured that people are only human and aren't perfect so I decided to go back to my church last year. I go to church once a week, not to be good but because I enjoy going!

Mandi
02-27-2007, 02:20 PM
Christmas is celebrated in schools, it is a christian holiday. Schools dont teach religion but I guess in some ways it is talked about and not just for example wicca, my daughter has learned more about Santa at school than at home. It just seems like God is not talked about. I for one think its great that my daughter can learn about all different religions so she can then pick the right one for her.

Santa is in no way a part of the Christian faith. I believe that the origional 'santa clause' was actually Pagan, but I have heard so many variations as to how Christmas actually came to be, that I'm confussed. Christmas isn't a Christian holiday, I know several people who aren't Christian who celebrate Christmas.

Cherry Pop
02-27-2007, 02:25 PM
Christmas is the day, christains decided to celebrate Jesus's birth. I don't believe Dec. 25 was his actual birth date ( I could be wrong). Christmas is also a pagan holiday where Santa Claus is celebrated. Some people who believe, celebrate christmas as Jesus birthday but also when Santa comes (I do), and others just celebrate Jesus's birthday (my brother does this, he is a pastor).

magoosmomma
02-27-2007, 02:26 PM
Some schools do teach religion..its a parents choice whether or not your child takes it ...

jdcb
02-27-2007, 02:30 PM
It's not an actual marker of his exact birthday. There are some churches who celebrate christmas on Jan 6 or Jan 7th. They reference the Juian calender for these dates.

Santa Claus is a variation of a Dutch folk tale based on the historical figure Saint Nicholas, or Sinterklaas, who gave gifts on the eve of his feast day of December 6. The connection between Santa Claus and Christmas was popularized by the 1822 poem "A Visit from Saint Nicholas" attributed to Clement Clarke Moore, which depicted Santa driving a sleigh pulled by reindeer and distributing gifts to children

Father Christmas, who predates the Santa Claus character, was first recorded in the 15th century, but was associated with holiday merrymaking and drunkenness.

I've read nothing about Santa or his other names being Pegan though.

jdcb
02-27-2007, 02:31 PM
Some schools do teach religion..its a parents choice whether or not your child takes it ...

That would be cool. But it's like a 'world religion' type thing where many are discussed, right?

Cherry Pop
02-27-2007, 02:38 PM
Sorry what I meant by the word pagan was non-believer but I guess their are other definations for this word. Again sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone and I truely hope I didn't!

magoosmomma
02-27-2007, 02:38 PM
That would be cool. But it's like a 'world religion' type thing where many are discussed, right?
I "think" its actually Catholic being taught.. and its again parental choice..It was taught during school hrs at both Saint Rose and Saint Macs ..I think atleast at Saint Rose that its taught at night now because it was the only time they could arrange for some one to do it..Because I didnt really know much about it and we are not Catholic I opted to keep my kids out however

Cherry Pop
02-27-2007, 02:42 PM
I think it is fine to teach religion in school if parents, teachers and students are all for it. My problem with my friend's situation was it isn't fair to teach about one but not even let someone talk about another. I feel that if religion is going to be taught in school than ALL religions should be taught and talked about equally. In my friend's situation, I feel that it was wrong to tell the little girl that her religion isn't allowed to be talked about!

Mandi
02-27-2007, 02:50 PM
That would be cool. But it's like a 'world religion' type thing where many are discussed, right?
When I was in high school (graduated 2003) it was during study hall period on Wed. morning, it was Catholic and by parental consent. They also had a Christian fellowship thing where people got together after school to so whatever it is they did.

jdcb
02-27-2007, 03:24 PM
Sorry what I meant by the word pagan was non-believer but I guess their are other definations for this word. Again sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone and I truely hope I didn't!

Pegan was actually a belief base that goes back a long way.

jdcb
02-27-2007, 03:33 PM
I just removed 3 posts. One of them was my own. I did so as I would like this to remain a discussion. Those posts would have sent the thread down a direction which would have the whole thread removed.

magoosmomma
02-27-2007, 03:44 PM
I just removed 3 posts. One of them was my own. I did so as I would like this to remain a discussion. Those posts would have sent the thread down a direction which would have the whole thread removed.
you had me thinking I was going crazy ,,lol..seeing something that wasnt here..lol

amethyst
02-27-2007, 03:52 PM
i had to take religion when i was at St.Mac's. I have no idea if they still do that though..i was there in the late 80's.

DA1983
02-27-2007, 04:01 PM
i had to take religion when i was at St.Mac's. I have no idea if they still do that though..i was there in the late 80's.

When I was there back in 98/99 they still had it....Now I dont believe in any organized religion at all.....I dont beleive in hell....god...the devil or any of it. But, I was baptised and there for couldn't attend the "religion" classes they had or their assemblies because I wasn't Catholic. Instead we had "study hall" which gave us a free period to goof off if you werent Catholic.
I have respect for those who are religious no matter what religion they are though. I think just because I don't beleive doesnt mean I have to push my beliefs(or what i dont believe in) on them and vice versa.

Rae_Maill
02-27-2007, 04:28 PM
I went to st mac's and i think even if you werent' catholic if you chose to you could attend the classes anyway. I am catholic and didn't attend as i had other school activities that happened at that time

Mandi
02-27-2007, 04:31 PM
I went to st mac's and i think even if you werent' catholic if you chose to you could attend the classes anyway. I am catholic and didn't attend as i had other school activities that happened at that time

That is true. I went to a couple of them. Just to see what it was.

rhiley_08j
02-27-2007, 07:14 PM
I started this thread to get some imput on people's views of religion in today's society, and I certainly have learned a few things. I can see that there is defintely alot of diversity. What I am curious about is that those that have their beliefs, and obviously feeling strongly about them, where do they come from? Were they something that they grew up believing, something that there parents past on to them, or was it from reading the bible for themselves and than coming to those conclusions?

Personally, when I was in my early 20's, I decided to go on a spiritual quest for knowledge on my own. I had joined in numerous churches,and read the bible, looking for what God said are those that are his followers. One thing that I found as a common thread between all religions is that each one shows a strong amount of faith in what they believe. However, in my search, I could not find one that followed everything that the bible said. That's why I decided to pursue my worship on my own.

I am certainly open-minded to all other religions, because in fact the original idea behind all churches stemmed from God's word. What separates them is their interpretation of those words. I think that the bible is not complicated if you read it for what it is, which is a guideline of the events that led us to where we are today, and provides us with the knowledge to live according to God's ways, which will make life more bearable. If everyone was to follow the examples setforth in the Bible, we would not have the difficulties we have today.

I also understand people's views on having religion forced upon them, it is something that each person has to find on their own accord, if that's what they want. However, I respect those denominations that are willing to put themselves on the forefront and face persecution and even imprisonment for following their religious beliefs. To me that is an absolute test of faith.

I am definately the last person that would ever come knocking on anyones door, and to be honest, even though I am open-minded towards other's beliefs, it use to irritate me when I would get the knock on the door, basically "Jesus calling". So one day I asked one particular denomination why they come to my door, and it was explain to me like this. "If you had a family member that was going to die, and you had the one thing that would prevent them from dying, wouldn't you give it to them?" It got me thinking, and to be honest it made me have a new found respect for what they do. Don't get me wrong, like I said, I'd be the last one to come knocking on anybody's door, but you can imagine the insults or physical threats that these people face all because they want to save my life.
So from that point on whenever a religious denomination comes to my door, I at least listen to what they have to say.

The thing is I think we all need to realize one thing about those that wish to pursue the teachings of the bible. It doesn't matter which religion you feel is right, because if you believe in Christian teachings than in all honesty we are all trying to reach the same goal.

t-bone
02-27-2007, 10:02 PM
This is an interesting topic. There have been some very good points made and it has been surprisingly civil.
Personally, I am a spiritual person, but I have a hard time with religion, at least the ones I have encountered to date. I have had many spiritual moments in my life, but none have happened in a church, but in all fairness, I haven't gone regularly in quite some time.
I am all in favour of freedom of religion. It is one of the things that make Canada a great country. I may not believe in the same things you do, but I am a strong believer in the "golden rule" or the "live and let live" philosphy.
What I find distasteful is the use of religion to discriminate against others. For example. I find it very offensive that religous leaders use their positions to try to influence the laws and policies of our nation.
Why do these people, who represent organizations that pay no or very little taxes, feel they can dictate thier beliefs to our society through the laws of our government? Why do these organizations and groups that contribute practically zero monitarily to our society think it is thier right and priviledge to decide on the laws we must live under?
If organized religion wants a say in the laws of society, I say, "give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's".

jdcb
02-27-2007, 10:20 PM
Why do these people, who represent organizations that pay no or very little taxes...

...these organizations and groups that contribute practically zero monitarily to our society...

Actually, I belive every member of my church pays there taxes just like everyone else. Also, these organizations are the biggest contributors to charities both local and abroad.

t-bone
02-27-2007, 10:35 PM
Like I said, I have fully support the right of freedom of religion, and that includes organized religion. If you choose to support your church and the work that it does, that is great. I do not believe you should get a tax deduction for doing so. The money that your church collects and does not use for charity, ie, overhead, salaries, etc should also be taxed.
I have had spiritual moments while hunting, fishing, skiing, boating, etc. As far as I can tell, there is not a spot on my income tax form to declare these things

jdcb
02-27-2007, 10:52 PM
I as a member of the church do not either. My pastor collecting a salary does get taxed. It's the organization as a charitable organization that does not get taxed. I don't believe soup kitchens get taxed...

Mandi
02-27-2007, 10:52 PM
Like I said, I have fully support the right of freedom of religion, and that includes organized religion. If you choose to support your church and the work that it does, that is great. I do not believe you should get a tax deduction for doing so. The money that your church collects and does not use for charity, ie, overhead, salaries, etc should also be taxed.
I have had spiritual moments while hunting, fishing, skiing, boating, etc. As far as I can tell, there is not a spot on my income tax form to declare these things


I once attended a church where the pastor said 'Give generously, my wife enjoys the finer things in life.' and for some reason, I didn't think he was joking. We don't tithe, I don't even give to the church other than some change / a $5 bill that we let our daughter put in the basket when we go (has been a while)
I would much rather give of myself to charity or to people I know who need it. We give to the children's wish foundation/ the IWK a lot. And every time I love doing it.

t-bone
02-27-2007, 11:17 PM
Churches, like soup kitchens and other charitable organizations such Greenpeace, try to influence government policy. They try to be the consience of our capitalist society.

Some churches, unlike other charitable organizations, use their position in society to promote discrimination and inequality against some sectors of society. This is doubley offensive to me. Not only do these churches get a break tax wise, they use thier power to promote discrimination against people who do pay their fair share, people who do pay their taxes.

jdcb
02-27-2007, 11:54 PM
I pay my taxes, I pay my fair share...

t-bone
02-28-2007, 12:13 AM
would you find it troubling if an organization that did not pay it's taxes, it's fair share, advocated the government to discriminate against you?

most religions fundementally say that we should love our fellow man, and judge not or ye shall be judged. yet in our society today, some religions pressure government, a governnment to which they do not contribute to financially, to pass laws that discriminate against people that do not follow their beliefs.

this is, of course, their right, but i find it very distasteful.

rhiley_08j
02-28-2007, 12:24 AM
Unfortunately, it is circumstance like these in the last few posts that have caused society to loose their faith. Personally I feel that God and government should remain separate, and I feel that religious organizations should not condone affairs that go against the Bible and Jesus' teachings. Most certainly as a christian we must show our respect to society's governing bodies, and obey the laws of land but when they begin to cross the line with what's right in the eyes of the LORD that is when I personally draw the line.
I don't think that money is something that should be forced to give but rather something that you give out of the kindness of your heart to a cause that you feel is worthy.

jdcb
02-28-2007, 12:38 AM
How are they forcing money? You don't 'have' to give anything to them. The IWK asks for money in a pushier manner than my church.

Would you not contact the government if something you believed in was being threatened? If you enjoyed mowing your lawn on a riding lawnmower in speedo and they tried to pass a law against it, would you not protest? How can you get upset for us doing the same.

And what discrimination?



My note as a moderator: I want to keep this thread away from bashing and as an open minded discussion. I have removed posts already, my own included, for beginning to send the thread that way.

rhiley_08j
02-28-2007, 12:46 AM
Maybe I should rephrase the term force, and change it with obligation. Many feel that when a collection plate is being passed around they feel obligated to contribute because they don't want to be looked down upon by the fellow members of the church.

t-bone
02-28-2007, 01:11 AM
It would be hard for me answer some of your questions without getting into the specific beliefs of individual religions. That is not the direction any of us want this thread to go.

While I may not agree with how you chose to implement the rights guaraenteed to you by the charter of rights, I believe in our freedoms enough that I would never petition the government to limit your 'pursuit of happiness'.

If a chuch can't convince me of the way to heaven from the pulpit, they really shouldn't be trying to have it legislated by the government.

jdcb
02-28-2007, 01:15 AM
There is always the option of putting in an empty envelope, unmarked, and face down...

I don't know what we're trying to force into legislation though, other than the fact that we're trying to keep our religion from being forced, by law and legislation, to be different. But anyways...

t-bone
02-28-2007, 01:29 AM
Nobody said your religion was trying to legislate anything. I don't know what religion you are, nor do I care.

t-bone
02-28-2007, 01:41 AM
we're trying to keep our religion from being forced, by law and legislation, to be different. But anyways...

okay, here is one for the delete key....

does the above quote mean that you want the government to protect and promote your beliefs to the extend that they are the norm? That other religions and belief systems are not as important or do have a big a part to play in society as your religion? doesn't freedom of religion apply to everybody?
shouldn't a religion be able to make it on it's own merits, without tax breaks and without it's beliefs being legislated upon society? I mean, if you can't convince me that your religion is the way to go, is it really fair game to lobby my MP to impose your beliefs on me via legistation?

rhiley_08j
02-28-2007, 01:45 AM
You know this isn't the way I intended the forum to go, we all have our beliefs, and I think it is abundantly clear that organized religion has had it's downfalls over the centuries, but what I would like to keep in everyones minds the examples that are setforth in the Bible, in black and white, that can't be disputed (if you read it for what it is). Whether you are Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Penecostal, Muslim, Budhist, or whatever you are, there are genuine principles in the Bible that can benefit everyone's lives if they are applied the way they were intended. Unfortunately religious wars start because many forget these principles and put their own judgements in front of what is truly right.

jdcb
02-28-2007, 01:47 AM
Nobody said your religion was trying to legislate anything. I don't know what religion you are, nor do I care.

, they really shouldn't be trying to have it legislated by the government.[/QUOTE]

rhiley_08j
02-28-2007, 01:48 AM
We are all brothers and sisters guys, that stem from two original ancestors, lets try and remember that. And if you want to simplify things in society, it's just one big case of sibling rivalry.

t-bone
02-28-2007, 02:02 AM
it has been my experience that when a religous person is starts to get uncomfortable about the direction a conversation is going, they will either start quoting or start talking about the bible. the bible means many different things to many different people. that could be the topic of whole other thread.

jdcb
02-28-2007, 02:06 AM
Nobody said your religion was trying to legislate anything. I don't know what religion you are, nor do I care.

[they really shouldn't be trying to have it legislated by the government.[/QUOTE]

jdcb
02-28-2007, 02:07 AM
okay, here is one for the delete key....

does the above quote mean that you want the government to protect and promote your beliefs to the extend that they are the norm? That other religions and belief systems are not as important or do have a big a part to play in society as your religion? doesn't freedom of religion apply to everybody?


Man, where is this stuff coming from? I'm going to keep it as a simple answer and say no...

jdcb
02-28-2007, 02:09 AM
it has been my experience that when a religous person is starts to get uncomfortable about the direction a conversation is going, they will either start quoting or start talking about the bible. the bible means many different things to many different people. that could be the topic of whole other thread.

So what would you like me to say? That's like saying "it's been my experience that a baseball fan will talk about baseball"

rhiley_08j
02-28-2007, 02:12 AM
it has been my experience that when a religous person is starts to get uncomfortable about the direction a conversation is going, they will either start quoting or start talking about the bible. the bible means many different things to many different people. that could be the topic of whole other thread.


This is what the topic of this thread is about. How we can make the world a better place by following the examples in the Bible. This is a quote from the first post I made to start this thread.

"It is not God's word, or the examples that his son provided us that have gone wrong it is man's abandonement of those words or their manipulation of those words, that have created the state that society is in today. Man will surely be his own demise. But, is it really too late. If one doesn't want to be involved in organized religion because of all the false teachings, why can't we still live by the examples that were set out for us, such as the golden rule, and love thy neighbour. Surely with philosophies like that we could all make the world a better place."

t-bone
02-28-2007, 03:08 AM
i thought this thread was about religion in society, not a discussion about the bible. It seems to some people, everything is a discussion about the bible.
before you start deleting any of my posts that threaten your way of thinking, perhaps you could comment on this. you may decide i making a valid point, but if you don’t, please try to refrain from quoting or mentioning the bible. if i don't believe in the bible, any arguments based on that book will make no sense to me. here is one of the question we have been talking around.
why do some religions think it is okay to not (in my opinion) pay their fair share of taxes to the government, but try to use the government to implement their teachings on society as a whole?
in a lot of areas, the church and the government are on the same page. such things as do not kill, do not steal....these rules benefit all society.
in other areas, the teachings of some religions do not benefit society, they actually encourage discrimination against some segments.
for example, anti gay marriage legislation. most gay people are honest, tax paying citizens that contribute to society in a positive way. now that gay people can get married, that does not in any way make my marriage less valuable. it harms no one. some churches are against this and they are trying to make everyone live by their rules. if you don’t believe in same sex marriage, fine, don’t marry some one from the same sex. outside of protecting children and people who are vulnerable, the church should really leave this alone and stop pressuring our nations government.

jdcb
02-28-2007, 03:23 AM
you say we try to use the government to implement our teachings (don't say you didn't or I'll quote it), but I have no knowledge of this being done.

In one of my previous posts I stated I did not want to bring gay marriage into this thread as the thread would degenerate because of it. If you would like to know why I am opposed to gay marriage, pm me. But before you do, feel free to re-read my old posts where I said that I have homosexual friends before you accuse me of being something I am not.

Edit: typo...

t-bone
02-28-2007, 04:00 AM
your personal beliefs are not the subject of this forum. at every point i have tried to keep on topic and not make this personal. that is still my goal.
i believe we were talking about religous organizations using their power to try to influence government and society.
i don't know what religion you are or if your church has done this or not. as for saying that you are not aware of this happening, well, how can i argue with that.
it is something that i believe happens, not just on this issue, but other topics. organized religion has too much influence on government, in my opinion. last time i checked, we are all entitled to our opinions.

admin
02-28-2007, 06:56 AM
This thread has been brought back, but as a note to all, please let's keep it civil.

Also, subtle jabs at moderators, such as statements like:
before you start deleting any of my posts that threaten your way of thinking
are inappropriate. jdcb (or any other moderator) did not delete any of your posts, or even hint at doing so.

trinity
02-28-2007, 08:34 AM
There is a big difference between religion, faith, spirituality and belief. A lot of the time, people tend to focus on the negative, every time someone attempts to show religion as a good thing, someone trots out David Koresh, northern Ireland, Catholic priests abusing children, or the oppression of women in SOME Islamic countries. That's like only seeing the tail side of the coin, they fail to mention Mother Theresa, Gandhi, the Dalai Lama, all the decent and nameless parish priests who were caring and did the job the way it was meant to be done etc. Another mistake people make is confusing Organized religion with faith or belief. Like any other Organization, there are going to be bad apples like Ted Haggard who abuse the system to get where they want to be. Oral Roberts and his "going to die within a month if I don't get 8 million" is used as an example of rampant greed hidden in false prophecy, while ignoring David Wilkerson and his saving of the street kids in NYC for pocket change; or Sister Patricia at Covenant House in Toronto. Conversion to Christianity has saved many people from a life of addiction, misery, and suffering by giving them hope and community support needed to fix their problems. It has equally caused many people to suffer and lose hope. I don't go to any church, because like so many of you here, I found inconsistencies and glaring examples of unChristian behaviour Monday thru Saturday. However, I don't knock other people's beliefs, some people require a religious foundation like a tent framework against which to hold up the structure of their life. Lacking a strong central belief system can cause a person to stray quite far from where they want to go, like a rudderless ship. Just like some people can learn from a book at home alone at random intervals while others need the structure of a classroom with discrete lessons, schedules, and homework, some people can create that system for themselves while others cannot.

frylock
02-28-2007, 09:16 AM
we're trying to keep our religion from being forced, by law and legislation, to be different.



okay, here is one for the delete key....

does the above quote mean that you want the government to protect and promote your beliefs to the extend that they are the norm? That other religions and belief systems are not as important or do have a big a part to play in society as your religion? doesn't freedom of religion apply to everybody?

I think a perfect example of heavy-handed legislation that goes too far in forcing religions to change involves gay marriage.

I don't know if the legislation passed, or if last year's election made it fall by the wayside.

But the problem was that the legislation could have forced churches to rent out their hall facilities for gay marriages.

A "live and let live" approach is one thing, and I think most churches would be okay with that. But I think forcing them to allow gay marriages on their facilities is going too far, and even takes away the "freedom of religion" that t-bone mentions above.


PS I'm not even Christian, and generally vote NDP, and even I think such legislation would go too far

frylock
02-28-2007, 09:23 AM
Churches, like soup kitchens and other charitable organizations such Greenpeace, try to influence government policy. They try to be the consience of our capitalist society.

Some churches, unlike other charitable organizations, use their position in society to promote discrimination and inequality against some sectors of society. This is doubley offensive to me. Not only do these churches get a break tax wise, they use thier power to promote discrimination against people who do pay their fair share, people who do pay their taxes.

I think the above arguments are pretty weak.

Not everyone agrees with Greenpeace either, but as a charitable organization, they don't have to pay taxes either (although, just like church employees, the Greenpeace employees obviously pay taxes).

It's absurd to argue that charities should have to pay taxes. They already do a great deal of good work.

If you don't like them, then don't donate to them. But it's not like the government is giving churches any money.

If churches want to lobby about issues on behalf of their members, they're allowed to. I strongly dislike The Fraser Institute (home of some rightwing nuts), and they lobby against a progressive Canada that I want. But they are a charitable organization, and rightly so do not pay taxes (although, again, the employees do).

sjmb
02-28-2007, 12:18 PM
If freedom of religion applies to everyone is there ever a line? Is there is ever a time when society or other religions have that right to say no? Just wondering?

sjchickie
02-28-2007, 12:33 PM
Everyone seems to be missing the bigger picture. Who cares what religion people are and are not. I completely agree that the catholic church tries to influence the government. Especially on gay marriage. Let the gays get married if they want too and dont cast them away from spirituality to do so. What kind of church denys people who love someone of the same sex???? The deny people who get divorced and people who marry outside the religion. The priest is considered married to god therefore cant get married themselves. I was taught to be catholic growing up but this world is an ever changing place and that religion in specific seems to not want to change and grow with us. Which i believe has led many off the path of "god"

Im not bashing catholicism by any means! Everyone has a right to their beliefs but no religion should teach hate or dislike. I also love these true catholics who are aholes through the week but still go to church to pray. Its infact a complete mockery of everything the church stands for. People need to learn to bend and change as the years go by. See what kind of heated debate religion has brought to this forum???? This is EXACTLY why i dont teach my daughter these kinds of values cause you all think your way is the best way. Its sad and unfortunate as im sure you "god" would be dissapointed at some of the finger pointing your all doing...**tisk tisk**

rhiley_08j
02-28-2007, 01:57 PM
I was hoping this thread would stay away from the topic of homosexuality. This is one one of the things that was once considered wrong but now is considered acceptable.

Now before anyone starts calling me a biggot, please read what I say and don't take it out of context:

I am a strong believer that it is not our place to judge anyone. The decisions that one makes and lives by is not between anyone else but themselves and their creator. However, that same philosophy should go for me too. If I choose to believe that the choices they are making are wrong, based upon my knowledge of the scriptures, than I should not be considered a biggot. I believe in the "live, and let live" philosophy, and in fact I know several homosexuals and I do not have any issue with them as a person, I just choose to not accept their way of life and I think it is wrong that I should be forced to accept it, or called a biggot because I don't. I wouldn't tell someone that they have to accept my way of life, and they shouldn't do the same.

sjmb
02-28-2007, 02:40 PM
I have been reading these posts since it started and found it very interesting had me thinking, I like to think I have a live and live attitude but for me to say that is pretty broad statement it’s a very large world with a lot of different ideas. to say that would mean I am open to everything and I am not , I don’t not except any religion or society that embraces numerous wives, keeping there congregation behind walls, incest, suicide, mass murder etc…. I know we call it a Cult they call it religion and there society. So I guess I was just wondering were is the line, …….

subaru2222
02-28-2007, 03:22 PM
Believe none of what you read and only half of what you see. If I told you a story 2 weeks ago and you told someone and they told someone etc... when it got around to 20 different people and I asked them to write the story down do you think it would be the same story that started? Not a chance. So lets go back 2000 years and this story has been told over and over and documented over and over. Well after 2000 years do you think it would be 100% correct? No it would not be. So believe what you want but you know what they say Believe none of what you read and only half of what you see.

rhiley_08j
02-28-2007, 03:57 PM
Believe none of what you read and only half of what you see. If I told you a story 2 weeks ago and you told someone and they told someone etc... when it got around to 20 different people and I asked them to write the story down do you think it would be the same story that started? Not a chance. So lets go back 2000 years and this story has been told over and over and documented over and over. Well after 2000 years do you think it would be 100% correct? No it would not be. So believe what you want but you know what they say Believe none of what you read and only half of what you see.


That is where faith comes into play. And whether or not you believe that "all scriptures is inspired by God". But even if you do not believe that the Bible is 100% accurate, you can not disagree that what is in the Bible can be beneficial for those that apply. What advice or guidance within the Bible could possible hinder your life and make it worse for the wear?

sjchickie
02-28-2007, 04:58 PM
[quote=rhiley_08j;49162]I was hoping this thread would stay away from the topic of homosexuality. This is one one of the things that was once considered wrong but now is considered acceptable.


i was really hoping someone would say that Riley interesting you bring that up about the scriptures. If you recall in last weeks paper allison brewer former NDP leader of NB was on the local page i beelive. and another women who teaches at UNBF came into my Global Issues class one as a homesexual and one as a reformed homophob. So so great you said this because you are WRONG this women actually took the time to write an article ABOUT these so called scriptures in the bible. She is a STRONG catholic and found herself for many years "putting up with" the homosexuals. BUT after reasearcing the bible and going the these scriptures that were in the new testement she learned that they didnt specifically target Homosexuals. INFACT in the old celtic church of england there is special reference to same sex "friends" people with such a bond that they were considered closer than husband and wife. Because as well all know for hundreds of years this "sanctity" we all call marriage was completley betrothed by those who were forced into marrying these men set up by their fathers and the who dowry issue etc. So you call that marriage???? I dont think your a biggot riley but after hearing this lecture from a reformed homophob and now law student I realized that what YOU think is in the scriptures your referring to are WRONG and you are taking it the WRONG way. Im gonna ask my teacher tomorrow morning for the link to the site of the article she wrote that is now canada renounded it and will Prove you wrong. Because the bible is not in how you perceive it ...or you would be "twisting" gods word. This has been her work for the last 5 years and I think Rhiley you should take a long read over this article and retract what you said. SO Glad you brought it up...dont mean to sound rude if i do but your dead wrong. Im going to get my notes from the class and then PM ya with the info

serialspell
02-28-2007, 05:51 PM
if rhiley_08j believes somthing or see's a scripture a certain way who are we or anyone else for that matter to judge? we all have thoughts, beleifs and understandings of things which is what makes us different.

sjchickie
02-28-2007, 06:51 PM
No....its ridiculous....the scripture wasnt meant to be taken into and perceived by each and everyone and what the BELIEVE god is saying. Isnt that twisting the word of the lord???? If it was ANYTHING but gay marriage the answer would be different. People dont like what they can not understand. The scripture was taken out of context but close minded homophobic indviduals. God is suppose to love EVERYONE and if Rhiley or whoever takes that word and twists his words around then What business do they have praying in a church pew on sunday???? Religion and the Government are 2 different things here in Canada if you want religion to boo hoo about gay marriage move to iraq or uganda where they kill gay people. The bible has no business in the rules of law and ...what about polygimysts and people who are forced to wed someone else. Doesnt that defy the sanctity of gods idea of marriage? Gay people love one another ...polygimy is disgusting and forced marriage is an outdated ridiculously silly way to force the tradition on others. The church is like a cult :) and all its followers are brainwashed to believe its speel .....

rhiley_08j
02-28-2007, 06:57 PM
SJchickie, I want you to understand something about me, and about my beliefs. I am not one to automatically believe something because I was told it, I look for evidence to back up what I believe in. Therefore, based on the fact that you have told me that I am wrong I decided I had to do some research from God's Word to show you how I come to my belief, if that is not yours than that is fine. I am not here to try to change your way of thinking.

These are the following scriptures that I base my beliefs on about the topic of homosexuality:

Genesis 2:24 -That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh

Genesis 19: 4,5 - Before they could lie down, the men of the city, the men of Sod´om, surrounded the house, from boy to old man, all the people in one mob. And they kept calling out to Lot and saying to him: "Where are the men who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intercourse with them."

Romans 1:27 - and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.

Leviticus 18: 22 - And you must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.

1 Corinthians 6:9 - What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men,

As for your comment about a "close bond" between members of the same sex stronger than that between a husband and wife, if I have a best friend of the same sex that I can share things with that I wouldn't even share with my wife, does that make me a homosexual?

Like I mentioned earlier, I do not judge anyone for their choices, it is not my place. And I am certainly not trying to use the Bible to bash homosexuals, I am just trying to show where my beliefs stem from. And I don't think I or anyone else should tell anyone what they believe is wrong. Everyone believes what they believe for a reason, and personally this was supposed to be a thread on how applying Bible philosophies in everyones lives, no matter what your religion, could benefit the world today.

serialspell
02-28-2007, 07:09 PM
first this thread was about religion and society, it somehow got changed to homosexuality and if the bible says its right or not, and i imagine this thread will eventually end up about assistance like most others. someone started this post with a question about todays society and its religous aspects, it was not started to let him or her know how wrong they are, or to try to push our beliefs on them. no one i know that has any idea about my religous beliefs agrees with barely any of it, but i am entitled to my thoughts and beliefs and so are others. this is a serious topic and really should not be converted into a competition on who's beliefs are right or wrong.

Cartersmom
02-28-2007, 07:26 PM
God did not write the Bible. The person who wrote that chapter is a homophobic individual, plain and simple.

Anyone who condemns another person for just being themself, not hurting anyone at all, why don't they see once again they are "judging" those people.

What's that saying, "judge not, lest ye be judged?"

When are people going to figure out homosexuality is NOT a choice. Just like you did not choose to be straight, it's just what came naturally to you. Thats fine if you don't think gay behaviour is natural , but I think its deplorable that a church would condemn and ostracise its members just for being gay. This is yet another reason why I refuse to be a member of organised religion, I would prefer to be a member of someplace that didn't judge against anyone for soemthing they could not control.

Catholicism seems to be the biggest crock of all. Over the years, the church has continually tweaked and changed its stance on things in order to become more progressive. Either the Bible says this, or it doesn't?? Why flip-flop? To make the religion more attractive, more easy to follow. But if people believe in the Bible and scream from the highest mountain that they are proud of their religion, why do they spit out the stuff they can't be bothered to follow and only take in the part they do? If you have to do that, IMO, then you aren't really that religion because you don't believe what it believes. Its not the right fit. I don't know why people don't research more and instead they just become the religion that was in their family even if they don't subscribe to any of the beliefs!!
In High School a good friend of mine was gay and he considered himself Catholic. And I would ask him time and time again. Why would someone want to be part of a religion that doesn't want you as a member? Wouldnt you rather be part of a religion who respects you, appreciates you, instead of considering you a sinner and everything else just for being yourself??

I mean, not all that long ago, there was even one day a week if I recall correctly where Catholics weren't allowed to eat meat..Friday? Now, they all eat meat...
Not supposed to get divorced, and re-married but a lot find loopholes or get married JOP for the second..
Not supposed to use birth control, yet amazingly , most people stop at 2 kids instead of 9 or 11 like it used to be...
And many more. For the record I don't believe in any of the above, I think it's silly , as well as not allowing the priest to get married either. Consider the alternative!

amethyst
02-28-2007, 07:31 PM
sjchickie, I believe our judicial system is based on the ten commandments. As well as other scriptures. All countries do. On whatever their religious beliefs are. In the middle east, if your caught stealing, they cut off the hand, as their bible/holy book tells them too i believe. Our morals, our principles are all based on that one book. Do you really think some guy with nothing better to do just decided one day that killing was wrong just because? And then, just because he was bored, he decided to send a pigeon out with the news? And how did he get millions of people to follow those laws? How did he spread the word to millions of people for thousands of years. Where do you think those things come from? Do you think killing is wrong? Is stealing wrong? I'm sure you think they are, so why do you think they are? Society is telling you they are wrong. Where is society getting it from? The carrier pigeon?

and quite frankly...a cult? that's offensive, and i don't offend easily.

as for gay marriage..i could care less...it's none of my business.

subaru2222
02-28-2007, 07:33 PM
I was hoping this thread would stay away from the topic of homosexuality. This is one one of the things that was once considered wrong but now is considered acceptable.

Now before anyone starts calling me a biggot, please read what I say and don't take it out of context:

I am a strong believer that it is not our place to judge anyone. The decisions that one makes and lives by is not between anyone else but themselves and their creator. However, that same philosophy should go for me too. If I choose to believe that the choices they are making are wrong, based upon my knowledge of the scriptures, than I should not be considered a biggot. I believe in the "live, and let live" philosophy, and in fact I know several homosexuals and I do not have any issue with them as a person, I just choose to not accept their way of life and I think it is wrong that I should be forced to accept it, or called a biggot because I don't. I wouldn't tell someone that they have to accept my way of life, and they shouldn't do the same.

I wont call you a biggot looks like you do a good job of it all by yourself.

rhiley_08j
02-28-2007, 08:52 PM
I am a strong believer in the commandment of "love thy neighbour". And no matter what race, religion, or sexual orientation a person is I do not think any less of them, and personally if I had the opportunity to be a good samaritan, I would not stop from helping someone because of these things. All that I was saying is that I personally don't accept that that lifestyle is something that is scripturely right. That is my perogative, and the only thing that has been proven is exactly what I stated when I made this thread, and that is that because I don't agree with something that was once considered wrong is now considered acceptable, that you bash me for not changing my moral viewpoint to match what society considers acceptable.

Nail
02-28-2007, 09:04 PM
Love thy neighbour, love thy neighbor... Now a days, that means when somebody deviates from their "moral standards" there's always a support or hobby group of similar minded people to justify them. The word "Love" has turned into never-get-mad-at-anything-and-accept-everyone-and-what-they-do-as-perfect-and-not-needed-changing. That's the frigging problem folks. All of these great ideas from the Bible and no one has ever read it. Heaven's history is in the Bible yet some people think that if they give ice cream to neighbourhood kids they're goin? HAH! All the instructions are there, in the Bible. You want Heaven? Get God. God is Love (another quote from said "Bible"). He gives us an example of love through Jesus. Act like him when you "Love". That means love everyone like he loved everyone. He didnt love people for what they did, not where they were born, not their history--HE LOVES THEM BECAUSE GOD IS LOVE. In return, all He asks people to do is put away their worldly thoughts and objects to focus their love on him. Even the most devout Christian has a hard time with this...dont get me wrong...but its all in the Bible.

Basically, what i'm saying is: Bible = Answers to religion & God. If you believe in a "random god of choice" dont plagerize Heaven. Thanks

subaru2222
02-28-2007, 09:40 PM
Love thy neighbour, love thy neighbor... Now a days, that means when somebody deviates from their "moral standards" there's always a support or hobby group of similar minded people to justify them. The word "Love" has turned into never-get-mad-at-anything-and-accept-everyone-and-what-they-do-as-perfect-and-not-needed-changing. That's the frigging problem folks. All of these great ideas from the Bible and no one has ever read it. Heaven's history is in the Bible yet some people think that if they give ice cream to neighbourhood kids they're goin? HAH! All the instructions are there, in the Bible. You want Heaven? Get God. God is Love (another quote from said "Bible"). He gives us an example of love through Jesus. Act like him when you "Love". That means love everyone like he loved everyone. He didnt love people for what they did, not where they were born, not their history--HE LOVES THEM BECAUSE GOD IS LOVE. In return, all He asks people to do is put away their worldly thoughts and objects to focus their love on him. Even the most devout Christian has a hard time with this...dont get me wrong...but its all in the Bible.

Basically, what i'm saying is: Bible = Answers to religion & God. If you believe in a "random god of choice" dont plagerize Heaven. Thanks

umm I don't know about others but I don't understand this post at all?

rhiley_08j
02-28-2007, 09:50 PM
You know for those that don't believe that the Bible was created for mankind's benefit, and don't feel that philosophies in the Bible apply to today, than maybe this thread isn't for them. I certainly didn't want this thread to be turned into something that would cause a rift, and now it appears to be taking that turn.

sjchickie
02-28-2007, 11:45 PM
I dont think it has take that turn at all. People are misconstruing things. God doesnt hate anyone no matter their sexual orientation etc. Seeing as you said god didnt write the bible then who really cares what his disciples wrote...maybe they were homophobs..god loves everyone and to not accept someones lifestyle on behalf of god is sad and a misfortune on your part. The world is in motion and God can do nothing about the way these people wanna live their lifestyle and if you wanna tell me he doesnt accept it than you can darn well bet i would never teach filth like that to my daughter or anyone i know. I have no use for "haters" not claiming any of you are but some of you try to tell us what God is saying. If god is saying he doesnt like homosexual lifestyle than god is no one I or any loving accepting non judgemental person should want. No one being can dictate "down with the homo's" lol its halarious to be honest there is nothing you can say to justify that to me or anyone else. Gays are people and if God doesnt like it OH WELL

rhiley_08j
03-01-2007, 12:08 AM
You know you are right God doesn't hate anyone. God loves each and everyone of us, and what's good about God is that he doesn't force any of us to follow his teachings. He has left the freedom of choice to mankind.

If you had a family member that was doing something wrong, and you didn't accept what they were doing, would that mean you didn't love them?

You mention in another post the topic of polygamy and how you felt that it was wrong, what if years from now, it was to become socially acceptable, would you than change your view on it?

All that I am saying is that my belief is stemmed from centuries of bible beliefs and just because society has changed their view on it, doesn't mean that God's word has changed. And as someone that believes in the Bible I do not hate homosexuals as you seem to be potraying me, I love them just as I love every brother and sister in the world, but I do not have to accept their choice as right.

As for you saying that I said the Bible wasn't written by God, where did that come from?

serialspell
03-01-2007, 12:26 AM
I dont think it has take that turn at all. People are misconstruing things. God doesnt hate anyone no matter their sexual orientation etc. Seeing as you said god didnt write the bible then who really cares what his disciples wrote...maybe they were homophobs..god loves everyone and to not accept someones lifestyle on behalf of god is sad and a misfortune on your part. The world is in motion and God can do nothing about the way these people wanna live their lifestyle and if you wanna tell me he doesnt accept it than you can darn well bet i would never teach filth like that to my daughter or anyone i know. I have no use for "haters" not claiming any of you are but some of you try to tell us what God is saying. If god is saying he doesnt like homosexual lifestyle than god is no one I or any loving accepting non judgemental person should want. No one being can dictate "down with the homo's" lol its halarious to be honest there is nothing you can say to justify that to me or anyone else. Gays are people and if God doesnt like it OH WELL

This sounds to me like you are a non believer, which is fine, i am no basher by any means but how are you able to defend homosexuality so strongly and defend religous beliefs with the bible and its understandings then go and say somthing like "Gays are people and if God doesn't like it OH WELL" All of a sudden a homosexual has more rights than god? not attacking you by any means just trying to understand your point of view.

andrea
03-01-2007, 12:45 AM
Here is a question to you all

If a 2 year old baby just comes out of a life saving surgery after having a deadly cancer removed, he comes out fine and healthy, do you get down on your hands and knees and thank god that all is well and he will live?

but do you also thank god for giving him the cancer in the first place?

If god was so great, that 2 year old should not have had cancer to begin with, that baby did nothing in this world to deserve it.

ok now i have a view ,,i was going to sit by and let it go,,,
but
i just recently had a baby boi,he was 31 weeks,,he needed life saving surgery,,with out it he would not have made it,,
i did blame god for this for maybe two secs,,,
then i realised.. god didnt do this, this was just who my baby was ment to be,,whats the point, with blame? hes here ..now what
i belive that the babies we have picked us,,they choose to be ours,i also felt that god was testing me..letting me know i can handle this,,that gave me the strength reminding me how strong i am..when i was doubting my self
letting me kno he put the knowledge to make those live saving machines on earth to begion with, he made those doctors amazing for a reason,,to heal.
now i am not a relgious type of person,, but i do have strong beliefs,
their is a higher power..a force a something,,
i live every day knowing that i am raising well rounded, responsible children,they have morals set by the bible sort of,,cause they were the ones raised in me..we go to church on holidays,,we dont over spend on holidays,,specially ones that are ment for relgious celebrations..(easter,christmas,blabla)now that i have ran about the mouth,,
im done,,
if u live life with caring about yourself and the people in this world then i think u are doin pretty good...
ps....when the mormans come a callin..do what kathey does lol.. open the door and say,,"we r all sinners in here lol then i close it...they usually talk to them selves and leave!!"

Auntie22
03-01-2007, 01:28 AM
"Originally Posted by Chinna Dah http://www.isaintjohn.com/classifieds/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.isaintjohn.com/classifieds/showthread.php?p=47733#post47733)
Here is a question to you all

If a 2 year old baby just comes out of a life saving surgery after having a deadly cancer removed, he comes out fine and healthy, do you get down on your hands and knees and thank god that all is well and he will live?

but do you also thank god for giving him the cancer in the first place?

If god was so great, that 2 year old should not have had cancer to begin with, that baby did nothing in this world to deserve it".


No One DESERVES to get sick and have bad things. When it happens it is natural to blame someone - Most will blame God. There are alot of things that we just dont and cant understand! Death of a loved one, sickness of a baby - it is not something that we see should happen. BUT - The baby who has just come out of that life saving operation will one day grow up and be able to tell about his/her miracle. That little baby may very well grow up and thank God for giving him the cancer and letting him overcome it - what a testimony!! Look at baby Bastiann - He is a miracle - and will one day grow old enough to tell his own story. The Mother who lost her little baby will be able to one day look at another mother and say 'i understand how you feel.' The individaul who was raped can console another becaue of what he/she went through. I would much sooner talk with someone who has gone through the experience then some councelor who is talking stuff that he learned in school....What happens in our lives plays a major role in who we are to become. How we handle tragidies, sickness and other things determines who we are in the future. I have had things happen in my own life where i have blamed God - but guess what - now I am stornger becasue of it. I have been able to talk to others and help them through their trials. It is comforting to know that someone can relate to you and truly understands where you are coming from.

Look at all the abuse that is going on. Do the children deserve it - NO!! Does God like what he sees - of course not!! BUT He made it so that we make our own choices. We and sometimes others have to suffer the consequences for our choices.

When I get to heaven, I for one will have a list of questions for God. Why the little babies have to die of cancer, or be beaten to death. Why does a person suffer from depression all thier lives? I may be a christain - but I am guilty of blaming/questioning God. It is part of who we are. It dosnt mean it is right OR fair - but life happens. .

Now....to read the rest of this post - it is getting huge! And I was at work all day so I am a bit behind!!

Rae_Maill
03-01-2007, 02:11 AM
k i just had to say this since some ppl are bringing up the gay issue, just to remind you great folks that christians also believed that they were keeping slaves because that is what a good god fearing person was supposed to do and hey it's even in the bible so that made it all right. if you take everything literally then do you still believe this is the case?

Auntie22
03-01-2007, 02:15 AM
i thought this thread was about religion in society, not a discussion about the bible. It seems to some people, everything is a discussion about the bible.
before you start deleting any of my posts that threaten your way of thinking, perhaps you could comment on this. you may decide i making a valid point, but if you don’t, please try to refrain from quoting or mentioning the bible. if i don't believe in the bible, any arguments based on that book will make no sense to me. here is one of the question we have been talking around.
why do some religions think it is okay to not (in my opinion) pay their fair share of taxes to the government, but try to use the government to implement their teachings on society as a whole?
in a lot of areas, the church and the government are on the same page. such things as do not kill, do not steal....these rules benefit all society.
in other areas, the teachings of some religions do not benefit society, they actually encourage discrimination against some segments.
for example, anti gay marriage legislation. most gay people are honest, tax paying citizens that contribute to society in a positive way. now that gay people can get married, that does not in any way make my marriage less valuable. it harms no one. some churches are against this and they are trying to make everyone live by their rules. if you don’t believe in same sex marriage, fine, don’t marry some one from the same sex. outside of protecting children and people who are vulnerable, the church should really leave this alone and stop pressuring our nations government.

OK. Fisrt of all..you have posted this a couple of times. And I still dont get it (maybe I need to read a little further..if so sorry)
why do some religions think it is okay to not (in my opinion) pay their fair share of taxes to the government, but try to use the government to implement their teachings on society as a whole?
In what why are some religions not paying their fair of taxes.

Gay Marriages. I am chirstain - I dont belive they should happen. I was one of the people writting letters against it. Let me explain. First off - I dont have a problem with gays/lesbians. I have friends that have chosen this life style. My friendship nor my point of view of my friends will change becasue of that. Just like they dont have a problem with they way I chose to live!! I believe in the Bible and it says that marriage is between man and women. The reason for my letters - and the reasons churchs cant leave it alone is becasue they way to bring it into OUR churchs. They want us to back down on something we beleive in. I dont feel it should be forsed upon us. If a pastor or priest choses not to marry a gay couple because of their beliefs then so be it. Gays are fighting for freedom - but what about our freedom - it is coming to the point that it will be considered discrimination if a pastor/priest/father (whatever religinos call them) refuses. If gays want to marry so be it. Go befor the judge or anoter leader of a church that is willing to prefor the cermony - dont force it on thoes who stand for what they believe it.

I am not trying to be preachy or condeming nor offensive - so please dont take it that way!!!!. Like I said - I hang out with gays and lesbians - i dont have issues with it I love them just as mush as any other friend. But I believe we all have our rights

Rae_Maill
03-01-2007, 02:22 AM
k if you love your homosexual friends so much then dont' they deserve the right to a loving marriage just as much as anyone else? dont they deserve the right to be able to call their partner their husband or wife? don't they deserve the legal rights of a married couple? in a religion that preaches love thy neighbour and do unto others, i guess that only counts if they are just exactly what the PEOPLE who decided what would be put in the bible decided they should be.

Auntie22
03-01-2007, 02:28 AM
. The church is like a cult :) and all its followers are brainwashed to believe its speel .....

I dont think that is being fair!! Just becasue we have chosen to be apart of a church/religion does not mean that we are brainwashed!!

It is great that you have come accross ONE person who has put 5 years into her research - guess what - there are thousands of others!!! On top of that there are others who have researched for the last several years who are ready to tell you in great depth the scriptures and meanings stating that Marriage is between man and woman!!

I am sure that if you give it some time you will run into someone else who has different answers that will enlighten you and you will have a different point of view all over again!

Auntie22
03-01-2007, 02:41 AM
k if you love your homosexual friends so much then dont' they deserve the right to a loving marriage just as much as anyone else? dont they deserve the right to be able to call their partner their husband or wife? don't they deserve the legal rights of a married couple? in a religion that preaches love thy neighbour and do unto others, i guess that only counts if they are just exactly what the PEOPLE who decided what would be put in the bible decided they should be.

I didnt say they didnt have a right to anything. What I said is I dont feel that we should have to accpet their marriages happening in our churches. Nor should our Priests/pastors... HAVE to preform the cermony. If you read the post you would have also read - let them get married - but let them find someone who is willing to do so - dont force it upon churches who believe other wise. In doing so it is stopping our freedom. Loving them does not mean that I have to accept thier life style - nor would I expect them to accept mine. My whole point was simple - Dont force our churches to change what they believe!

Nail
03-01-2007, 03:14 AM
Here's my views:

Cancer in a child -- Blame God for the Cancer? FAH! Hilarious. What do you think causes cancer? Pick anything from this list: Pollution, by-products,chemicals,radiation,holes in the ozone....Yeeeah blame God---nice Cop Out. Humankind did all of those things including giving the child cancer. Blame yourself or our society. Good thing God IS around for blamers .... he makes a nice scape goat. Remember, free will was ours.

Homosexuality: Since when does Gods Love mean sex? God could care less if you're "gettin any". He wants you to love Him and show him that by following His Commandments. If you're in love with someone of the same gender, that doesnt mean you have to have sex with them.

Gay Marriage: Seriously, everyone has accepted people coming out of the closet. Gay people feel loved again. They're accepted. I know many gay people who are hilarious and fun to hang out with! Now that they are part of society, does that mean they have the right to change centuries of Biblical Law and Tradition so that they can get a tax cut like a traditionally married couple? Heh. I dont think so. I think its selfish to even approach the church to ask for that. Marriage is Biblical. THATS WHERE IT COMES FROM! Homosexuality is covered in the Bible too! God doesnt like it much. He even calls it a sin. Will he strike homosexuals down on the street? NO--he loves them. Does he love them because they have a radical alternative lifestyle? No. Thats just something they do.

I know what you're thinking, blah blah blah; but i accept people who practice homosexuality as who they ARE, not which gender they have sex with. This does NOT mean i agree with it.

Mandi
03-01-2007, 11:44 AM
my views on Gay Marriage...

My fiance and I have been together 6 years yesterday, and have lived together for quite some time. We have a little girl, and another on the way. No where in the law does it say that people like us can't get married, although we are clearly violating what the bible says is right. I love my fiance very very much, and it's returned. We're getting married in late summer 2008. But it doesn't seem fair to me that people tell others they're not allowed to love each other, and show it in union. We are clearly violating 2 rules in the bible, and most consider it fine. If two people love each other, they should be allowed to have a holy union. God loves us all, and I seriously doubt that being gay is going to stop you from entering heaven. I do agree however that gay/lesbian couples shouldn't ever try to force a priest to marry them if the priest isn't interested in performing a gay marriage.

Mandi
03-01-2007, 11:51 AM
Marriage is Biblical. THATS WHERE IT COMES FROM! Homosexuality is covered in the Bible too! God doesnt like it much. He even calls it a sin.

What about people who openly practice wiccan religions, or are athiest? It quite clearly states in the bible that you shouldn't worship 'false idols' or other gods. However the bible doesn't come into play with these unions, Why I ask? Why are people who are budhist able to get married? Islam? Kabahla? I think the reason that gay marriage isn't excepted is because a lot of people put a stigma on being gay.

Nail
03-01-2007, 12:01 PM
Heh, Nice. You should see what those religions think of homosexuality.

Mandi
03-01-2007, 12:14 PM
Heh, Nice. You should see what those religions think of homosexuality.

I don't care what they think of homosexuality, I'm curious as to why they're allowed to get married even though they're violating beliefs of the bible and same sex couples aren't.
Im definately not against the fact that they are, but I am a curious mind. How is it justifiable?

rhiley_08j
03-01-2007, 12:27 PM
I think that homosexuality, is only a small portion of what was once considered wrong and is now considered acceptable. Look at the amount of people that have sex outside of marriage, or gambling, or idolotry, just to name a few. Don't get me wrong I am not perfect.

My "wife" and I are not legally married, although we view ourselves as, to the extent that we wear rings. We have 4 children that were born out of wedlock, and I smoke. All these things I know are scripturally wrong, and I don't excuse them. I know that when the day comes that I must meet my maker that I am going to have some explaining to do. I cannot honestly say what my fate will be, but from my knowledge of our heavenly creator, that he knows more of what's in my heart than I do. That's the best that I can hope for.

However, because of the sins that I have made in the past, I don't feel that it is too late to try and rectify those choices and I personally don't use the excuse that I am not perfect to continue on the path of unrighteousness.

I find it hard sometimes like many others, but I refrain from blaming it on God, because I realize that the position we are in today was because of a choice that the original man and woman made, and that the trials and tribulations that we face today are a test of faith to show our loyalty to our heavenly creator.

Personally, through all of my research throughout the different religions, yes mainly Christianity, I cannot say what will happen in the end. Whether it be the rapture, judgement day, paradise, whatever it might be, I just hope that God will see me for who I am and accept that I followed his teachings based upon what I read in the scriptures to the best of my ability. I don't think that there is much more a person can ask for.

rhiley_08j
03-01-2007, 12:33 PM
I don't care what they think of homosexuality, I'm curious as to why they're allowed to get married even though they're violating beliefs of the bible and same sex couples aren't.
Im definately not against the fact that they are, but I am a curious mind. How is it justifiable?


I think you are right Mandi, I don't think that it is justifiable. I think it's just a matter of the saying "two wrongs don't make a right". There is alot of things that are wrong with today's society, and to be honest if we were to pinpoint every single thing than our hands would probably fall off from typing, LOL:D

Nail
03-01-2007, 02:14 PM
Do these wikken and atheists get married in a church? Do they really want to get married in a church by a Christian? I know everyone sins. I do, you do, everyone does...it's obvious. Are we to indulge in our weaknesses that cause these sins (for example--you say smoking is a sin, why not quit? Oh, you're addicted. addiction can be a weakness. You dont just lay down and let your addictions or sin run your life. You fight to become better---and for the record, i dont think smoking is a sin, it just stinks and kills you).

I said everyone sins, but God forgives through Jesus. Even atheists know this "story". When i think of homosexuality, i dont think a lifestyle, i think an addiction. --Some might think thats wrong. But i dont judge or place people in categories based on things they've done.-- So when a homosexual couple asks to get married in a church, it's like they're proving that God approves their sin. He can forgive them of their sin, but when you're married to someone based on sin...

Mandi
03-01-2007, 02:22 PM
Do these wikken and atheists get married in a church? Do they really want to get married in a church by a Christian? I know everyone sins. I do, you do, everyone does...it's obvious. Are we to indulge in our weaknesses that cause these sins (for example--you say smoking is a sin, why not quit? Oh, you're addicted. addiction can be a weakness. You dont just lay down and let your addictions or sin run your life. You fight to become better---and for the record, i dont think smoking is a sin, it just stinks and kills you).

I said everyone sins, but God forgives through Jesus. Even atheists know this "story". When i think of homosexuality, i dont think a lifestyle, i think an addiction. --Some might think thats wrong. But i dont judge or place people in categories based on things they've done.-- So when a homosexual couple asks to get married in a church, it's like they're proving that God approves their sin. He can forgive them of their sin, but when you're married to someone based on sin...


I always thought same sex couples were only fighting for the right to get married, not to marry in the church specifically.

CrazyPeanut
03-01-2007, 03:31 PM
Not that I am looking to jump into a debate because I do not know enough about anything in particular to sound smart and well, because I have better things to waste my time on.

I think in our society, religion, spirituality, wahtever you want to call it has become more of a silent personal issue. I think that this is for the very reason that have already been mentioned, persecution, pushing, peddaling, hypocracy, everything. We all have some sort of belief, albeit none of are the same. Most of us are undefined because of the judgment, peddaling, and just nasty way somethings are run.

Personally, I would love to be a witch! However, just because I find it intriguing does not mean that I will ever be one.

Someone can say this is wrong, that is wrong, she , he , it whatever is wrong, but what it all boils down to is what is right for you. I have no right o judge anyone else or their belief.

Crazy

Nail
03-01-2007, 04:34 PM
To actually answer the initial posting, i think that religion has died died off becuase everyone is too afraid of hurting someone's feelings. Getting called biggots, nazis, prejudiced, homophobes etc, has scared people into the "all accepting" mega religion of Apathy. You care so much about not hurting someone's feelings you dont say or state your own opinion.

Cartersmom
03-01-2007, 05:32 PM
My "wife" and I are not legally married, although we view ourselves as, to the extent that we wear rings. We have 4 children that were born out of wedlock, and I smoke.



Well, you were quoting from the bible..let me give it a try..

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Worry about yourself and not other people :) Not too late to quit smoking, get into shape, propose, etc! lol

My main point form my first post in this thread was, just becasue a person does not go to church, or just becasue a person does not even believe in a higher power, does not make them a bad person. It does not make them inferior to someone who goes to church, or who works the Bible into every conversation. In many cases, these people live more by God's teachings and the 10 commandments than the "religious" people do. Not becasue they are God's teachings, nor becasue they are scared into submission. Its becasue they want to do the right thing..and they have a good moral compass.

I am not perfect either, (who is?) and I have never followed the above BECAUSE I was religious or whatever..but of most of the people I know, I would have to say I am the LEAST religious/spiritual and probably follow more of the teachings than all of them. There are a few I don't but its becasue I don't believe in it, for example I am not opposed to birth control. I'm not currently on it, but I am not opposed to it.. but I am going to live my life so that I don't feel badly about treating anyone badly, or harming others, or doing anything morally wrong.
Many , MANY religious people aspire to the above , do not follow it, yet *those* seem to be the same people casting judgments on ME becasue I don't go to church!! It just doesn't make sense to me!

Rickster
03-02-2007, 12:14 AM
The SAD thing is that no one today really knows or understands what Relegion really is or what it really is responsible for in the ongoing fight to place it in our Niave minds ! It changes from day to day for whatever the next marter has to say. Think back a few years and remember when we had a healthy society and no worries of the ailments that we suffer today(AIDs HEP. and such) and why,...We kept changing our Beliefs to suit our means and have gotten so far of the track that we ALL forgot this so-called meaning of 'Gods word',We should all be very ashamed of ourselves,Especially when we've done such perverted atrocities as to say Man can Love/Marry Man and Women as such,For Shame on us ALL !! And then we wonder why our 'Children are confused !!?? My God ,Are you all really that niave enough to believe someone elses interpretation of a book, as to make it YOUR rules ?Quite obvious to ME that people are forgetting how to be an individual and want to be so much like the 'Jones' that they start to lose their own personallity !! - Rick. Where do we stop becoming Clones ??

Rickster
03-02-2007, 12:23 AM
Hy Rhiley ; It's a sad thing when you have to start keeping up to 'Society' by asking these kind of questions, Whats that tell you about how OUR Lifestyle is changing ?!?-The Rules change all the time,...imagine,Man marry Man and tell me where THAT is in the Bible, Hold our heads low on that one !!! -Rick.God help our Children,Look at them Now,Today,????

wannabuy
03-02-2007, 01:16 AM
Ohhhhh My God, I can't believe wut I am reading in these posts, (flick of the wrist)

Cherry Pop
03-02-2007, 10:05 PM
Heh, Nice. You should see what those religions think of homosexuality.

I'm a christain and I believe what the Bible says! As for Gay people getting married - I don't care if they do or don't - as far as I'm concerned let them. Just because I don't believe in a gay lifestyle for myself doesn't mean I care whether others do it or not. That is up to them. As far as I'm concerned nobody has the right to say it's wrong or right for others. That is judging people and that is wrong! The Bible says not to swear, people do it everyday-Who cares? I'm not going to judge someone for swearing, I might not agree with what their saying but it's not my job to judge. Point is we are all human and we aren't perfect. The Bible says not to do a lot of things but does everyone of us not do all those things - of course not! I'm not perfect. I've done some things the Bible says not to. Does that give people the right to judge me? NO In my opinion the "wrong" things I've done are between me and God.
I haven't been on it a couple days but I am wondering how a cool post about different religions turned into gay debate? Sorry but I don't believe anyone should be judging whether a gay person is right or wrong and whether believing in a gay lifestyle is right or wrong! For the people on this post who are, I have one question - Who died and made you God?
By the way I think everyone should be equal - straight, gay, man, woman, child,etc!

boupau
03-23-2007, 09:22 AM
Just wanted to add a few things for people to consider:


Religion is a belief, by removing GOD from schools etc, are we by default supporting the religion of Atheism?
Are we humans having a spiritual experience or are we spirits having a human experience?
Does the church promote a negative vibe when it comes to religion or is it the people within the church? I once heard something that stuck, standing in a garage for awhile does not make you a car. Same applies, just b/c you go to church and can recite bible verses does not mean you are a christian.The converstations had on this post will not be resolved on this site and I understand this was not the intent of the initial post. Our beliefs are strong and ones we are willing to fight to protect. That is why the topic of relgion is so heated and will continue to divide people rather than bringing them closer together. It is important that we as the human race support those less fortunate and look out for one another. You don't need to be a specific religion to make that happen. :)

subaru2222
03-23-2007, 09:35 AM
Just wanted to add a few things for people to consider:


Religion is a belief, by removing GOD from schools etc, are we by default supporting the religion of Atheism?
Are we humans having a spiritual experience or are we spirits having a human experience?
Does the church promote a negative vibe when it comes to religion or is it the people within the church? I once heard something that stuck, standing in a garage for awhile does not make you a car. Same applies, just b/c you go to church and can recite bible verses does not mean you are a christian.The converstations had on this post will not be resolved on this site and I understand this was not the intent of the initial post. Our beliefs are strong and ones we are willing to fight to protect. That is why the topic of relgion is so heated and will continue to divide people rather than bringing them closer together. It is important that we as the human race support those less fortunate and look out for one another. You don't need to be a specific religion to make that happen. :)

Very well said. I like the "standing in a garage for awhile does not make you a car" part that just about sums it all up.

adm
03-23-2007, 10:12 AM
I disagree with this statement, and here's why (my opinion only, please don't take offense).

Education breeds understanding.
Understanding breeds acceptance.
Lack of education breeds ignorance.
Ignorance breeds contempt.
Contempt breeds wars.

Teaching religion does not have to be about converting people to someone else's religion. Teaching religion should be about explaining the beliefs and histories of the different religions. I think everyone would be better off if they understood why Jews celebrated the Christmas season differently than the Christians, or why Hindi do not believe in Christmas trees. Understanding the different religions does not mean you have to practise the different religions.

My opinion on this is the same when it comes to understanding different handicaps and physical limitations of some people. If the schools taught children about different learning disorders and physical handicaps, then perhaps the kids (and adults) who catch the bus at City Hall to go work at Key Indsutries would not be threatened and picked on. 'Protecting' (or shielding) your children from the different religions and different classes of people is not doing them a favour. What is insulting is the thought of our schools and parents ignoring the fact that we're not all the same. This needs to be embraced and explained. Only then will we be any closer to us all being seen as 'equals' - not only in the eyes of our Gods, but in the eyes of each other.


Although I don't agree with religion in school. There are too many varying religions to make sure that you have someone at the school that can teach each one. At my sisters school there is Catholic, Christian, Budhist, Wiccan, Jewish, Hindu and more. And that's only a school with 600 students. You can't just teach the most popular religions because it can be insulting to others.