Another School Question...

[shadoww]

Our son in grade 5 has been told he will be doing half the year in French Immersion( starting after Christmas).
What is the point of this? He is not in french Immersion he is in English school. We had an older child in French Immersion from grade 1 to 5 then took him out. We made the decision not to put our younger children in french Immersion. How can they do this without our permission. Why havent we heard about this before now? Is it a new program for grade 5's? We are very concerned how he will handle this.

Are all schools doing it??

[dittydottie]

This was introduced last year to some schools.This year all grade 5's get it. 50% english than 50% french.
Now no french at all for any grades under the grade 5 level.Absolutly none!!!

[shadoww]

I am really upset about this, my husband just talked to the vice principal about it, she said alot of parents are upset.

My son has enough trouble understanding science etc in english, but now to expect him to learn it all in French its rediculous!!


He was told everything but Math will be in French!! I cannot believe this prgram can be brought in without consulting with parents!!

[kr73]

Did you guys miss all of the media coverage and public outcry regarding changes to EFI? It was clearly detailed that ALL students in the core English program would be required to participate in the Intensive French.

The public *was* technically consulted. This summer. Gotta love this Liberal government, eh?

[shadoww]

I have to admit everytime the news talked about French Immersion I didnt pay attention to it at all, as I had no intention of my kids ever going into it again! Big Mistake now I see,lol.

Thing that makes me the maddest is we as parents have no say whatsoever, what happened to CHOICE???

[momof2sweethearts]

I am really upset about this, my husband just talked to the vice principal about it, she said alot of parents are upset.

My son has enough trouble understanding science etc in english, but now to expect him to learn it all in French its rediculous!!


He was told everything but Math will be in French!! I cannot believe this prgram can be brought in without consulting with parents!!

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The New Brunswick government has responded (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2008/08/05/french-immersion.html) to the concerns expressed by parents about the government's plans to change French immersion education. A court ruling that ordered more public consultation provided an avenue for those worried to present their perspective.

Education Minister Kelly Lamrock has announced early French immersion will be available to pupils in Grade 3, starting in September 2010.

Previously the government had planned to end early French immersion beginning in Grade 1 in the coming school year.

French-language training will be available to all students in Grade 5..

An introduction to French language and culture will be available for all students in kindergarten and in their early grades, while a wider range of options for French instruction in high school will also be in the new curriculum.


"It is something that is fair, inclusive and bilingual and focused on quality and equality," Premier Shawn Graham said.

"New Brunswickers told us almost unanimously that they recognized that our education system could and must be better, that changes were needed."


"We have managed to find a plan that we believe will strike the right balance," Lamrock said.

The new plan will see students entering Grade 1 will have the option to start French immersion in Grade 3.

"In establishing this Grade 3 immersion point, we have to make sure that bilingualism isn't just for a minority in New Brunswick," Lamrock said.

Students to start French immersion in Grade 6 if they don't take the option in Grade 3.

"There will be a Grade 6 entry point into immersion for students who come later in life to the ability and passion to learn a second language," Lamrock said.

The provincial government has said it wants 70 per cent of all high school graduates to be bilingual by 2012.

[shadoww]

I strongly believe it should be the parents choice what language we want our children taught in whether it is French or English. It should not be a decision made by our government.

[Pumpkin]

Ok I am totally lost now!!!!

I had the understanding that the parents complained so much about this that this year they would not be forcing children to take their 5th year half in english and the other in french. I was just told by a friend her daughter is facing this problem NOW THIS year!!! I'm confused!!

Confusion number 2..... the last post, the news article, makes no sense at all compared to what's being said amongst us people....or atleast I do not follow. Does this mean out children HAVE to take french immersion in grade 6 if they don't start it in grade 3? And does this mean they are not forcing our kids to take half a year english and half french in grade 5?

Im lost.

And I will also mention the fact that I WILL be HAULING my daughter OUT OF PUBLIC SCHOOL if she is forced to take half a year in french!!! My daughter, like others have mentioned, struggles with her launguage arts and math in english, she will SURELY fail if forced to learn in french!!! Not to mention a large percentage of other children will no doubt do the same, which is only going to set out children back.....

Do we, the english, not have the freedom of choice anymore? The french yap about their issues being a minority and the government gives them what they want and now our english children are going to suffer for them? How do two wrongs make a right? If you want your child to learn english and english only, you should have that choice!! If you want your child to learn only french, you should have that choice, if they want to learn both, again the choice should be yours and your childs!! Myself, I would love to have my daughter know another language, but first I want her to conquer the english language especially since she struggles with her work. What's wrong with that?

See if the government would stop wasting millions on election posters and signs and other foolishness, and invest even some of the money into our schools, we wouldn't be having this problem. ALL schools would be open and running at good capacity but not over full, students would get more one and one not to mention and, each teaching their own way. Some could be all french, some all english and some both, depending on demand!! But No that would be too easy!!!

I REFUSE to have my child's self esteem in her learning lowered anymore so by having the french language shoved down her throat!!! She is down on herself in her learning as it is because she is a struggler, why would I allow the school system to bring her down more!!!!

I read in the news article posted in this thread ..."It is something that is fair, inclusive and bilingual and focused on quality and equality," Premier Shawn Graham said. .........FAIR???? Fair that the english kids who have troubles learning will fail out and come to think they are stupid because they can't learn the way others can??? Are they supposed to go to stupid school whilst everyone else takes french all day everyday? Quality? What quality, they said themselves in a letter I was presented that a bunch of schools including forest hills are in discussion about closing it's doors because our curriculum is so poor because of Low to NO funding from the government so what do they think? If they change it to french it is gonna be better curriculum? What a laugh!!!

What kind of government do we have? Is this supposed to be a suitable and agreeable arrangement? I think not!! The french have been heard, now they need to listen to the english and makes ends meet somewhere in the middle, and in AGREEMENT, not just what they feel is good and want THEY want to do.....

I hope if this is FORCED on our children, that you who protest will do just that!!!!!!!!

[AreWeThereYetMom]

Could you have missed the school communication sent home about the Grade 5 changes? Some good information is available on the District 8 website:

This is an excellent link describing a lot of the common questions the parents have:

http://www.district8.nbed.nb.ca/pages/FAQforparents.pdf

As indicated on the District 8 Website:

"FRENCH SECOND LANGUAGE PROGRAMMING CONSISTS OF THE FOLLOWING ELEMENTS, WHICH WILL BE IMPLENTED OVER THE NEXT FIVE YEARS: Effective September 2008, there will be:

Universal K-2; All children will learn together in English and will be introduced to French culture and language through a series of learning modules integrated into the curriculum (introduced in Grade 1 in January 2009; to kindergarten and Grade 2 in the fall of 2009).

Intensive French (Grade 5): Intensive French is a second language model in which French is taught intensively in grade five for at least 70% of the day over a five-month period for about 270 hours. The Intensive French semester is preceded or followed by about 45 hours of French instruction, preferably offered in blocks of time through the week. The two semesters result in approximately 315 hours of second language instruction during the grade 5 Intensive French year.
During the five-month Intensive French semester some subjects are not taught to allow for 270 hours of Intensive French. Mathematics is taught in English throughout grade 5 and generally so is music and physical education. During the semester before or after the Intensive French term, all subjects are taught according to the recommended time allocations.

[Pumpkin]

Well I am afraid to say, I didn't get a notice explaining anything about this french crud, I've only heard about it through word of mouth and if this remains for next year, my daughter will no longer be enrolled in Public School!!!

Too bad everyone wouldn't yank the kids out, maybe they'd get the hint then that we don't want this forced on our kids!!!

[shadoww]

Well I am afraid to say, I didn't get a notice explaining anything about this french crud, I've only heard about it through word of mouth and if this remains for next year, my daughter will no longer be enrolled in Public School!!!

Too bad everyone wouldn't yank the kids out, maybe they'd get the hint then that we don't want this forced on our kids!!!


I agree, that this is the only thing that would make the govt sit up and listen at this point. I didnt get any information from our school warning of this.

I wrote to Susan Tipper today and she expressed the schools were to give out information in paper form and voicemails about this.

My son asked his teacher about this today and was told there is nothing parents can do about this and to deal with it!!

[Chinna Dah]

I did 1 year of french immersion in 1987, then went back to an all english school. I liked it, and I still remember some, I cant speak it hardly at all, but I do understand some if I am reading it, or hearing it if spoken slowly enough. Now 21 years later I soooo wish I had stayed in it, realizing now that bilingual people have a better and bigger selection of jobs to choose from, and where I work, bilingual people do the exact same job, but make a couple dollars more per hour than I do.

Please don't think of french immersion as a bad thing, your kids will thank you in a few years, after they have graduated from university, and get a great job because they are bilingual.

[shadoww]

I did 1 year of french immersion in 1987, then went back to an all english school. I liked it, and I still remember some, I cant speak it hardly at all, but I do understand some if I am reading it, or hearing it if spoken slowly enough. Now 21 years later I soooo wish I had stayed in it, realizing now that bilingual people have a better and bigger selection of jobs to choose from, and where I work, bilingual people do the exact same job, but make a couple dollars more per hour than I do.

Please don't think of french immersion as a bad thing, your kids will thank you in a few years, after they have graduated from university, and get a great job because they are bilingual.

I dont think french Immersion is a bad thing if its what a parent wants, our oldest son was in it for 5 years but we CHOSE not to put our younger children in it. I dont think the gov should TELL us what language our children should be taught in. It should be a parental decision! If people want their child to be in taught in french they should have that choice as well. My point is every other province in Canada it is up to the parents as it should be in NB as well!! I have talked to some friends in other provinces today and they are blown away by what is happening here!

[Marigold]

It really doesn't matter what the government does, you can't please all the people all the time...Someone is always going to be mad and put out. I think every child should get a second language, and the earlier the better. I've vacationed in Europe, and lived briefly in the middle east, and it seems like North America is the only place where there is such a resistance to learning a second language. Most countries in Europe teach anywhere from 2-4 languages! And this is just not for high achiever children, children with special learning needs also learn two languages from a very early age. Why isn't this the case in Canada? Why is there such a resistance?

[MichelleM]

Whether we want French as parents (which I do) or not we are a billingual province so why not give our children the best opportunity by having them learn it?

[kr73]

French Immersion is NOT a bad thing. Neither is staying in English. The bad thing is that this Liberal government has taken away choice in the education system. Students are being forced into intensive french and conversely students are being denied early french learning by not offering EFI until grade 3.

I suggest that everybody continues to let both the district and the Minister know that you are opposed to this. Just because it's implemented does NOT mean we have to approve of it. Stand up and be heard!


Also, I want to let people know that when Lamrock was implementing these changes I emailed our MLA, Paul Zed. He told me emphatically that he was opposed to this and that he values having the choice of EFI for New Brunswick but that he wouldn't get involved publicly in provincial politics. Well, guess who is now helping him to get re-elected? Yep, Kelly Lamrock. Guess who won't be getting my vote in this Federal election? Yep, Paul Zed.

[shadoww]

French Immersion is NOT a bad thing. Neither is staying in English. The bad thing is that this Liberal government has taken away choice in the education system. Students are being forced into intensive french and conversely students are being denied early french learning by not offering EFI until grade 3.

I suggest that everybody continues to let both the district and the Minister know that you are opposed to this. Just because it's implemented does NOT mean we have to approve of it. Stand up and be heard!


Also, I want to let people know that when Lamrock was implementing these changes I emailed our MLA, Paul Zed. He told me emphatically that he was opposed to this and that he values having the choice of EFI for New Brunswick but that he wouldn't get involved publicly in provincial politics. Well, guess who is now helping him to get re-elected? Yep, Kelly Lamrock. Guess who won't be getting my vote in this Federal election? Yep, Paul Zed.

I cant wait for the liberals to call and ask if they have my support!!! It will be an ephatic NO this time.

Another thing that makes me mad is I have written to Susan Tipper and am not impressed with her responses at all, as well as from my sons teacher, basically they say too bad nothing you can do.

[MichelleM]

They are just changing when english children are taking the french.
Rather that start in grade one and take a little at a time they are waiting mostly till grade 5 and taking it all at once. Its not more, its just restructured to be taken later.

[bradorna]

I am just wondering if the towns on the North Shore that are completely french have no choice in whether their children are now going to do half their year in English? Bet not!!! Funny how they can force our childrento speak French as an improvement in Education, but yet some of them are now graduating with bad reading skills, math skills, spelling skills, etc. They should be focusing on smaller classes so the students get more one on one time as Pumpkin mentioned. They want NB to be bilingual so they better teach our french people in this province to speak english and I have first hand experience with families right on the north shore that cannot speak one word of english and are basically trapped there the rest of their life unless they choose to go to Quebec to live and work. Nobody can argue with me on this point because I have been right in their homes and the only communication there was between use was the limited amount of french I know. And unless I am crazy,the last I checked the north shore was part of NB. As the old saying goes, what is good for the goose is good for the gander!!!!

[sanstu]

There is always something people can do if they organize themselves. Keep you children home, en- mass. Maybe the parents could organize to do this on a rotating basis, 3-4 schools at a time. Wouldn't take too long before the government got the picture. Just a thought.

[shadoww]

There is always something people can do if they organize themselves. Keep you children home, en- mass. Maybe the parents could organize to do this on a rotating basis, 3-4 schools at a time. Wouldn't take too long before the government got the picture. Just a thought.

This is what my husband said as well, if everyone did something to protest together maybe we will get results.

[kr73]

They are just changing when english children are taking the french.
Rather that start in grade one and take a little at a time they are waiting mostly till grade 5 and taking it all at once. Its not more, its just restructured to be taken later.

This is a ridiculous approach to education. It's like saying to make our kids get more exercise I think we'll eliminate gym class until grade 5 and then do half a year of gym. Or to make our kids better scientists I think we'll stop all science lessons and then do half the year of grade 5 just science. Kids to not learn that way. Every single piece of literature I have read indicates that the earlier a child learns or acquires a skill, the easier it is. It's nonsensical.

[shadoww]

what I have been told as well, is too many kids are dropping out of Late Immersion, because its too much of a culture shock for them switching to all french. They think introducing it in grade 5 will be easier, but the way I see it its still going to be a culture shock to them then. Does'nt make sense to me

[newmommy]

Me , myself i think its a good idea. we live in the only bilingual province in Canada and ALOT of us don't know french at all. my hubby went to SAM as a kid and his french is awesome, mine n the other hand is so, so . i cant speak it but i can read it lol don't make sense does it. we are going to put both of our kids in SAM. we are going to teach our kids french right away . you can walk out of high school with a better job if you are bilingual then if you just know English! That's just my opinion!

[MichelleM]

This is a ridiculous approach to education. It's like saying to make our kids get more exercise I think we'll eliminate gym class until grade 5 and then do half a year of gym. Or to make our kids better scientists I think we'll stop all science lessons and then do half the year of grade 5 just science. Kids to not learn that way. Every single piece of literature I have read indicates that the earlier a child learns or acquires a skill, the easier it is. It's nonsensical.
I didn't say I thought it was right but that is what they are doing. Personally it makes no difference to me what they do in the english program. My daughter is in early french and my son will be to when he goes to school. We are a billingual province, that is not going to change. So why not give them the best opportunity when it comes to jobs.

[shadoww]

Ok I am feeling much better now!
The principal just called and he explained it all to me, and was much more helpful than the teacher, or vice principal were before. Certainly more helpful than Susan Tipper!! So basically all the focus for 5 months is learning french, not social studies or science etc they do still do math and english but the rest of the time is learning how to speak french they really wont be doing much writing of it really. There will be no homework in French at all for parents to worry about. He said no one will fail. It is set up so that no one will fail! So for 5 months they do a condensed version of normal grade 5 work then the other half of the year it is learning to speak French.

They have not sent out any information as it was all just decided over Summer so they assumed all parents knew to expect it.

I am still very angry that the government is NOT letting US make the choice of what language our children are taught in but I am alot less worried now that it was all explained.

[momof2sweethearts]

Where were you all when the parents DID have a voice??? I sent a letter as a concerned parent as was requested to those who wanted a say in this. The change was at first to have no french training at all until grade 5 in which time they would have 1/2 the year only french and than could decide on staying in it or continuing with English. Not a good solution. I for one wanted to put my child in early immersion so I was opposed to this as well as other parents so we fought it, in fact two parents took it to court on the basis there was no consultation. The court ruled in the parents favor and we were than given time to email our complaints, give better solutions. The decision day came and Mr. Mamrock changed it according to the article I pasted. Which is in my opinion a much better solution. The problem with the early immersion system was that the children enrolled were not spelling in English well so to me starting in grade 3 still gives our children better grounding in our first language, grade 5 was just too ridiculous. Another problem is French immersion students were smaller groups so they had an advantage over the English only classes. The children that do have trouble learning are now going to be left in the back burner by this new system unfortunately and for those parents I would make sure to contact your MLA. I really don't understand where you all were though when you had a stronger chance to be heard.

[shadoww]

I have to admit everytime the news talked about French Immersion I didnt pay attention to it at all, as I had no intention of my kids ever going into it again! Big Mistake now I see,lol.

Thing that makes me the maddest is we as parents have no say whatsoever, what happened to CHOICE???


As I have said before I didnt pay attention as I didnt have interest in French Immersion. Not realizing it was going to affect my kids regardless.

[momof2sweethearts]

The thing is a lot of parents were the same. And even thought because Kelly Lamrock said "no french until grade 5" that we were supposed to say "Um, O.K!!" We all need to know and realize that the government needs to consult the public and when they make decisions without proper consultation, than we need to be heard!! Look what happened when we did. It may not be the best decision for all children as I said, but there is always the option to go back to English still,since mastering English of course is as important. Being bilingual though whether we like it or not, puts our children at an advantage over English only speaking children. Just look at all the jobs available in New Brunswick.

[Pumpkin]

I don't feel that having a second language is a bad thing at all. More knowledge is always better!!! BUT BUT BUT

When your child is struggling in your own language, why should that child be forced to take those subjects he/she is already having trouble with in a language they know nothing about.

Why was our system as it was so bad? If you CHOSE to become bilingual, there was french immersion in the schools as well as all english. If you chose to become bilingual later in life, there is college and university for that!!! AND, like we all know this has become a Bilingual province, so why do we not have the choice to speak only english? I know people who refuse to speak nothing but french here.....so what's the difference. Yes it may benefit our kids, but shouldn't they be allowed to take it when THEY feel READY academically, to do so?????

I dunno but I still stand by my word, I will yank my child out if it does not change by next year!!! I hope everyone else in disagreeance will too, the french have been heard now it's time for the english to be heard!! They don't seem to care that a lot of us a real mad about this, they obviously are NOT hearing us, so I am gonna make sure my voice is heard by removing my child from the problem!!! If everyone against this did so, I am SURE they'd hear us then!!!! Teachers would start to speak out because the numbers would drop, MORE jobs would be loss, so SOMETHING would HAVE to be done!!!!

There is a way to do this to calm both sides of the "war" here, but the GOVERNMENT is too GREEDY to fund education!!!! It would open up many more jobs for the over 300 teachers waiting for jobs, it would give teachers and students more one on one time, and it could all be done in both languages and seperately, and could be a choice. But they are too bust wasting out tax payers dollars millions to be exact, on stupid things like elctions? Where is the justice in that????

I can GUARANTEE that what lil french my child has been taught in grades so far is NOT enough for her to understand a teacher teaching almost all her subjects in french? So I know now, she will fail. Not that I doubt my daughter, but I know her learning issues!!! How is this fair? The children who excel in french and have the capability to grasp it all in french will grade and graduate, but our english kids who have learning troubles yet still pass their grades, will finally begin to fail out. I am darn sure the french parents wouldn't want their children to be made to feel stupid, down on themselves and so on, causing them to want to drop out of school or just not show up for classes. Why do we have to sacrifice our children for them? That's not right!!!

Also, what happens to all the non french speaking teachers? Are they all out of a job? Not all teachers know french and I am darn sure they didn't become bilingual in 1 summer!!!!

I believe instead of making the school system and academics better, they are making nothing but a BIG mess!!!

[kr73]

The government keeps saying that "NB test scores are low" and that they want to "fix" it. If you look at test scores across Canada and compare the provinces then yes, the scores DO look very low. What is not factored in is that NB is the only province that requires those on SEPs to be tested along with everybody else. No exemptions. If a child is absent they are marked as a 0. So... say for example that I am little Johnny's mother. Little Johnny is moderately autistic and will not sit through a standardized test and is NOT allowed to use an aide during this time. So, I either keep little Johnny home and he gets marked as a 0 or I send him and let him struggle through the test as best as he can and he will still score a low mark. Either way, there are no provisions made for the testing of this child. Also, if a child has issues with fine motor skills (printing) they used to be provided with a scribe for standardized testing. This is no longer allowed.

There are so many variables to factor in to NB's low test scores. Lamrock wants you to believe that he is "fixing" the system. In my opinion he is severely compromising it. I intend to let the Liberals know when the next election rolls around.

[mizunderstood]

I strongly believe it should be the parents choice what language we want our children taught in whether it is French or English. It should not be a decision made by our government.

It is... Have you considered homeschooling?

[rpokane]

Interesting read:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7594910.stm

[monicaw]

I am really upset about this! My son has a learning disability and struggles enough with his schooling and doesn't get the help he needs because there is to many kids in a class for 1 teacher and cutting back so bad that there is no such thing as an aid to help him..AND here they are putting in pure French for half the year. Hes gonna fail! I have thought of homeschooling him but I really don't think I would be the help he needs to succeed. Hopefully this will change before he gets to grade 5, right now hes in grade 3. We need the government to hear us and listen because they are OUR kids, NOT THEIRS!

[kr73]

It is... Have you considered homeschooling?

Yeah, ok. And if you don't like the healthcare system, be your own doctor! And if you don't like your landlord, just buy your own house! Life is so easy!

[sanstu]

Yeah, ok. And if you don't like the healthcare system, be your own doctor! And if you don't like your landlord, just buy your own house! Life is so easy!

Parents have legitimate concerns regarding the government's plan pertaining to the French Immersion Program. Concerns pertaining to classroom support for disabled children and children with different learning styles/learning disabilities have not been addressed by the government. Remember, support staff for grade 5 will need to be bilingual. This service has been lacking in the school systems to date for children in immersion,(and not near enough support staff in the English programs) so now, all of a sudden the government is going to implement said support for this program, not to mention the cost to implement bilingual support staff into the classrooms. Hearing impaired children,and children that require an ASL interpreter for communication, seem to have been totally left out of the government's "plan".

kr73, just because this change in education does not affect you, doesn't mean that other parents don't or shouldn't have concerns regarding the delivery of programs for their children. Life may be "easy" for you, however the younger members of our society, our children, deserve to have these concerns addressed. Further, life for a disabled child or a child with a learning disability is never"easy".

[kr73]

Wow. I thought my sarcasm was obvious. Guess not. lol


If you read my previous posts it's pretty clear I am opposed to the government's changes.

[sanstu]

Your sarcasm was indeed obvious, hence my post.lol

[mizunderstood]

Yeah, ok. And if you don't like the healthcare system, be your own doctor! And if you don't like your landlord, just buy your own house! Life is so easy!


I was being serious when I said to consider homeschooling. It is not for everyone, however you would have control over the education that your child recieves. Maybe if enough people pulled their kids out and started homeschooling them the gov't might get the point?