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Moe
03-05-2008, 01:55 PM
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patbez
03-05-2008, 02:31 PM
This was kind of covered in another topic...

I personally will not be vaccinating my children. Vaccination & not vaccinating both have risks & you have to assess what risk you're more comfortable with. I feel that in today's society most of the things they vaccinate against don't really come into play & even if they did, modern medicine can catch it & treat it much sooner.

I've already been in too many debates over this subject & have had my personal choice put down by countless people, so I won't get into it again, but just urge anyone & everyone to be educated & make the decision that is best for their family & their beliefs.

scuddles
03-05-2008, 02:57 PM
Firstly I have to say that having friends and family with children with disorders that are included in the ASD classification, and with lenghty talks to a few of my daughter doctor's out of concern. I have chosen to vaccinate my children. Not that I was really concerned with this happening because I chose to vaccinate them, but because I wanted to have medical opinions and knowledge due to all the commotion about this subject.

http://www.cps.ca/english/statements/ID/PIDnote_Jun07.htm

http://www.kidshealth.org/parent/general/body/fact_myth_immunizations.html

patbez
03-05-2008, 03:02 PM
Keep in mind doctors often benefit from children getting vaccinated & obviously so do the companies that make the vaccinations. Therefore it's very rare to find a doctor that would be against it.

orange
03-05-2008, 03:13 PM
Keep in mind doctors often benefit from children getting vaccinated & obviously so do the companies that make the vaccinations. Therefore it's very rare to find a doctor that would be against it.

Doctors don't benefit from promoting the vaccination of kids.

The medicare system in Canada means things are very regulated, and Canadian doctors have enough work already. It's not like they need to "drum up business" by promoting vaccinations... that's not the case at all.

Most doctors are in the medical field because they want to help people (plus the money's good, but they would get paid well even without vaccinations).

Drug companies, yes, they have suspect motives. But your point about doctors doesn't really make sense...

MichelleM
03-05-2008, 03:19 PM
Keep in mind doctors often benefit from children getting vaccinated & obviously so do the companies that make the vaccinations. Therefore it's very rare to find a doctor that would be against it.
The Dr's do not benefit. If the dr's wanted to benefit they would prefer you not to get your child immunized and when all the diseases that these immunizations protect against come back they would have lots of visits.
They recommend it to prevent your child from catching diseases that can harm them. Its not like its this big trick

patbez
03-05-2008, 03:23 PM
Any kind of medical treatment, including vaccinations, that have to be done on a regular basis keep doctors in business. They don't NEED the extra business, but business is business, even in the medical field. I didn't say that doctors go into the field to harm people...but there are some doctors that just don't give a damn. I have been to many a doctor that seems to have no interest in their patient & just want to get the job done.

Doctors probably receive pressure to be for vaccinations...or in the least are not given adequate info about the dangers they possess.

That's just my opinion. You don't have to agree.

A good resource for vaccine info that I personally believe in: http://allnaturalhealth.us/june_russell_vaccinations.htm

patbez
03-05-2008, 03:25 PM
MichelleM: It would most likely be emergency room docs etc. that would benefit...not family doctors.

But yes, doctors are probably urged by the drug companies to vaccinate in my opinion. It's been documented that drug companies will sometimes supply doctors with free supplies or samples etc. as pay-offs. Just because my doctor says it's best to vaccinate, doesn't mean I'm going to believe them.

I believe they do benefit, you don't. We're both entitled to our opinion. & they're just that...opinions, not facts. Again, everyone should seek info on their own & believe what they want :)

orange
03-05-2008, 03:41 PM
Any kind of medical treatment, including vaccinations, that have to be done on a regular basis keep doctors in business. They don't NEED the extra business, but business is business, even in the medical field.

There are thousands of people in each major Canadian city looking for a family doctors. Family docs could cry-out against vaccinations, and they still would have more "business" than they can handle. They have no need to support vaccinations.

So when you say "Therefore it's very rare to find a doctor that would be against it."

That's wrong... You admit ER docs could get "more business" out of speaking out against vaccinations. But they don't, because vaccinations make sense...

The whole "it's all about business" idea is just plain wrong.


I didn't say that doctors go into the field to harm people...but there are some doctors that just don't give a damn. I have been to many a doctor that seems to have no interest in their patient & just want to get the job done.

Usually, it's because they're too busy (personally, I would hate to be a family doc though, considering some of the crazy people that are out there... and then the doc may get jaded from that, even when dealing with regular people).


Doctors probably receive pressure to be for vaccinations...or in the least are not given adequate info about the dangers they possess.

That's just my opinion. You don't have to agree.

An opinion is one thing, but you're making it out to be like doctors are part of some conspiracy.

I don't have much love lost on drug companies, but I find it wrong when people impugn doctors' motives.

I agree that vaccinations have pros and cons, but personally, I think the pros far outweigh the cons.

orange
03-05-2008, 03:44 PM
But yes, doctors are probably urged by the drug companies to vaccinate in my opinion. It's been documented that drug companies will sometimes supply doctors with free supplies or samples etc. as pay-offs. Just because my doctor says it's best to vaccinate, doesn't mean I'm going to believe them.

Canadian doctors are highly regulated, and have to disclose "pay-offs" I think.

I think it's fine to question the merits of vaccinations, but to impugn doctors' motives, and to suggest thousands of medical researchers are in on some conspiracy.. just doesn't really deal with the actual issue of vaccinations.

People from a wide variety of fields research medical issues, including statisticians and economists.. and they also have no reason to be part of a conspiracy.

patbez
03-05-2008, 04:09 PM
Regardless of a person being "crazy" or not, a doctor should care about their work & have good bedside manner.

I didn't say it's ALL about business nor did I say all doctors were bad.

But I'm entitled & allowed to have any opinion I wish...& speak it. You can think it's "wrong" all you want & you're free to state your opinion. Just don't twist mine to be any more severe than it is.

I personally don't believe vaccinations make sense, I do believe that *some* doctors do benefit from it & I do think that researchers are *sometimes* paid off. I think there are independent researchers now seeing the ramifications of vaccinations...but it's still hard for anyone that goes against the "flow" to be heard or have their opinion respected. I believe the medical industry is still making money, no matter how you look at it...whether patients best interests are at heart is another story.

Notice how every statement I made above clearly stated "I believe" or "I think" & did not state that those opinions were fact. It's a free country, people. It's simply silly to get miffed even if I did believe in some big conspiracy...it's an opinion. Opinions make the world less boring :)

Back me up against a wall & stone me if it's so terrible to question some doctors motives or some medical research. I guess you guys don't watch/like W5? ;)

orange
03-05-2008, 04:35 PM
Regardless of a person being "crazy" or not, a doctor should care about their work & have good bedside manner.

I didn't say it's ALL about business nor did I say all doctors were bad.

But I'm entitled & allowed to have any opinion I wish...& speak it. You can think it's "wrong" all you want & you're free to state your opinion. Just don't twist mine to be any more severe than it is.

I personally don't believe vaccinations make sense, I do believe that *some* doctors do benefit from it & I do think that researchers are *sometimes* paid off. I think there are independent researchers now seeing the ramifications of vaccinations...but it's still hard for anyone that goes against the "flow" to be heard or have their opinion respected. I believe the medical industry is still making money, no matter how you look at it...whether patients best interests are at heart is another story.

Notice how every statement I made above clearly stated "I believe" or "I think" & did not state that those opinions were fact. It's a free country, people. It's simply silly to get miffed even if I did believe in some big conspiracy...it's an opinion. Opinions make the world less boring :)

Back me up against a wall & stone me if it's so terrible to question some doctors motives or some medical research. I guess you guys don't watch/like W5? ;)

An opinion is fine, but insulting an entire profession is incorrect and pointless.

Vaccinations are a valid debate, but you don't need to insult docs, especially when the whole idea of a conspiracy is so outlandish. There are enough pros and cons in the matter, without having to make swipes at entire professions.

You can say "I believe that most of the medical profession is part of a grand conspiracy", but it's still an insulting and somewhat ignorant comment to make, and "I believe" in front of it doesn't lessen it much.

People with views like that are similar to people who think politicians raise taxes because the politicians get the money themselves, despite that being absurd, and despite the fact that most politicans get paid far less than comparable jobs in the private sector.

Your 2nd post said "Doctors often benefit from vaccinations - therefore it's very rare to find a doctor that would be against it."

MichelleM and I made already points about how you're wrong about that.

I'm not a doctor, and no one in my immediate family is. But I've been around high-level university researchers, and to suggest that doctors and researchers like that are part of some conspiracy is simply an insult, especially when most people comparable abilities can make far more money in the finance world.

Most doctors go into the profession to help people, and if you think they're supporting vaccinations just so they can "drum up business" that they don't even need (due to the crushing demand already), well, you're just wrong then.

It's like having a debate about basketball vs hockey, and then someone coming up and saying that all people who wear hats are part of a conspiracy... it has no point and is incorrect :p


Just to add though, I think you're more educated about this issue than most people (although I disagree with your conclusion)... but I simply find the swipe at med researchers and docs to be incorrect and pointless.

orange
03-05-2008, 04:41 PM
Also, this W5 article basically seems to be all about how vaccinations are beneficial :)
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1076086445321_71495645///?hub=WFive

MichelleM
03-05-2008, 04:52 PM
MichelleM: It would most likely be emergency room docs etc. that would benefit...not family doctors.

But yes, doctors are probably urged by the drug companies to vaccinate in my opinion. It's been documented that drug companies will sometimes supply doctors with free supplies or samples etc. as pay-offs. Just because my doctor says it's best to vaccinate, doesn't mean I'm going to believe them.

I believe they do benefit, you don't. We're both entitled to our opinion. & they're just that...opinions, not facts. Again, everyone should seek info on their own & believe what they want :)

Are you on crack? What is there for them to promote in vaccinations? They are all the same it not like you pick and choose between companies like cough medicine.
Why even going to the dr. if you know best and they are just out to trick people.
There were just new studies published by the same people who initially suggested that autism and vaccines were related that disproved this.

sarahnb
03-05-2008, 07:07 PM
I have an awesome doctor who supports either side. He believes we are over vaccinating but only if you ask him. I've done 3/4 of my kids vaccinations through public health. I'm not keeping anyone in business by going there. Actually in PEI, you'd have a hard time finding a doctor to do immunizations. Public Health does them.

patbez
03-05-2008, 09:38 PM
Yes, it is unfortunately a touchy subject. But one I believe in very deeply. However, there's no need for people to get their panties in a bunch over MY opinion.

MichelleM: Yes, as a matter of fact I AM on crack! How did you know?! I am a crack addict who has taken the time to educate myself on vaccines & has decided it's not right for MY children. I'd like to think I'm a rather coherant & intelligent crack addict, wouldn't you say? ;) Please don't make personal insults. It's just...tactless. & the companies that create vaccinations make money, lots of it. Either privately from the medical system in the US, or governmentally here in Canada. I never said all doctors are out to trick people & I never once said they weren't knowledged in other areas...it's okay to not agree with me, just don't allude to things I never said.

Orange: I don't think I insulted an entire profession. Did you read my wording in my previous post? I said SOME doctors. I said SOME researchers. I never once made the statement ""I believe that most of the medical profession is part of a grand conspiracy"" & I don't like having words be placed in my mouth :/ Even if I had insulted an entire profession...so what? That would still be an opinion I'd be entitled to.

If you're not a doctor & you don't have any in your immediate family, how do you KNOW that my opinions are wrong? I just don't see how it's fair to say that you made points about how my opinions are wrong, but expect me to believe your opinions as truth? That's a bit hypocritical. To flat out say I'm incorrect is just...dismissive of my opinion & unfair. I have not once said you're incorrect...I've just given a different point of view. You could certainly be right...I don't know...I just personally haven't seen the evidence to back up your side of the opinion either, so I'm going to stick with my own :)

& the article you linked to was from 2004...4 years ago. There was no mention of autism or the other side effects or issues that could be caused from vaccinations. Although the risk might be small, how does it compare to the risk of your child getting one of the diseases, like polio or influenza? That's exactly what a person has to weigh out for themselves.

orange
03-05-2008, 10:15 PM
Yes, it is unfortunately a touchy subject. But one I believe in very deeply. However, there's no need for people to get their panties in a bunch over MY opinion.

MichelleM: Yes, as a matter of fact I AM on crack! How did you know?! I am a crack addict who has taken the time to educate myself on vaccines & has decided it's not right for MY children. I'd like to think I'm a rather coherant & intelligent crack addict, wouldn't you say? ;) Please don't make personal insults. It's just...tactless.

Tactless -- like how you insulted doctors? :rolleyes:

But I agree with MichelleM's exasperation, considering you keep repeating your nonsensical view (that doctors do things because it's good for business), despite being refuted so many times already.


This was your statement:

"Keep in mind doctors often benefit from children getting vaccinated & obviously so do the companies that make the vaccinations. Therefore it's very rare to find a doctor that would be against it."

"Often" is not "some" (as you say below), and you suggest "Therefore it's very rare to find a doctor that would be against it"

"Therefore" and "very rare" are the problem words there...

You could just admit that you made a careless comment and admit you were wrong, rather than trying to defend an incorrect statement. :p

A correct statement would be that "A small percentage of doctors may benefit from children getting vaccinated. But the vast majority of doctors support vaccination based on medical evidence, although some doctors do not support vaccination, based on the same evidence."



Orange: I don't think I insulted an entire profession. Did you read my wording in my previous post? I said SOME doctors. I said SOME researchers. I never once made the statement ""I believe that most of the medical profession is part of a grand conspiracy"" & I don't like having words be placed in my mouth :/ Even if I had insulted an entire profession...so what? That would still be an opinion I'd be entitled to.

You're entitled to have an opinion like that, but other people are also entitled to say that the opinion is absurd.

You're obviously intelligent, because you write very well and have at least have looked into this issue (most people probably don't), but your statements about doctors are just plain wrong.


If you're not a doctor & you don't have any in your immediate family, how do you KNOW that my opinions are wrong?

Because I know a couple doctors personally or in my extended family, I've had exposure to high-level university researchers, and to people who help set policies in government -- so I know how high the standards are, and how most people like that have the best of intentions. They aren't going to support vaccination for a reason as absurd as "it's good for business", since they don't need any more "business". They support what they feel is best for people's health.

Obviously, some doctors are petty and greed is their overriding value -- just like people in overall society. But your statements suggested that most docs are like that, and essentially that it's "very rare" to find docs not like that -- clearly, an incorrect viewpoint.



I just don't see how it's fair to say that you made points about how my opinions are wrong, but expect me to believe your opinions as truth? That's a bit hypocritical. To flat out say I'm incorrect is just...dismissive of my opinion & unfair. I have not once said you're incorrect...I've just given a different point of view. You could certainly be right...I don't know...I just personally haven't seen the evidence to back up your side of the opinion either, so I'm going to stick with my own :)

As I said multiple times already, the vaccination debate can stand on its own merits, and has pros and cons -- but there's no need for swipes at docs and med researchers, by suggesting they do things "just because it's good for business".

I can't believe I'm still arguing about this -- re-read the earlier posts, because you've already been refuted multiple times. :p


& the article you linked to was from 2004...4 years ago. There was no mention of autism or the other side effects or issues that could be caused from vaccinations.

Yes, but you said "Don't you watch W5?" -- and yet here's an article from W5 that talks about how more vaccination is needed. Or is W5 part of the grand conspiracy now too? ;)

Like I said, I agree that there are pros and cons, but I disagree and personally find it annoying when people insult professionals like that by questioning their motives for reasons that really don't make logical sense (nor factual sense).

patbez
03-05-2008, 10:54 PM
Ugh, I'm so done debating this.

I don't think what I said about some doctors was at all tactless. I didn't pin-point one doc & call him a greedy SOB or something. But yet, it's okay to be asked if I'm on crack? sheesh.

I just don't get how it's wrong to question the medical profession or doctors. I'm kind of shocked this has gotten you guys so riled up, to be honest. But oh well. I still stick by everything I said, I still feel words are being put into my mouth or at least what I've said is being twisted.

I didn't make a careless comment, I stand by my OPINION, it's your opinion that I'm wrong & you're allowed to have it...just as I'm allowed to have mine. I do really resent it being alluded to that I would think my own comment was careless...I certainly don't. & I'm just sick of, again, having words put in my mouth..."Or is W5 part of the grand conspiracy now too?"....again, when did I ever say there was a grand conspiracy. I just said I think it does happen, but not across the board. Never once mentioned a grand conspiracy. Don't be so dramatic.

It's okay you find my opinion personally annoying. I have no problem with that. I find it personally annoying when people feel the need to tell someone their opinion is wrong. Get off your high horse. Believe whatever you want for whatever reasons you want & I'll do the same.

This is no longer a debate about vaccinations or the issues with doctors, this has now become orange's mission to punish me for my opinion, get me to change it or in the least belittle it. Nonsensical view? lol. I'm a person who just so happens to have a different opinion than you. That makes it nonsensical, I guess ;) Everyone is not always going to just roll over & agree with you...& people are going to believe differently, no matter how much smack you talk.

From the get go I have told people to educate themselves & choose for themselves. & that's it. Case closed from me. I'm pregnant & don't need the stress of defending my opinion to someone that just seems to like to hear that their opinion is the right one.

sanstu
03-06-2008, 07:51 AM
patbez, I agree you are entitled to your opinion, and no you shouldn't be demeened because of it. Please make sure your research includes medical opinions and that you're not getting "sucked into" the propaganda from special interest American groups. They are also big, big business in the US..

Some complications from the childhood diseases that vacs protect against are not reversible. A child can become blind, deaf, or suffer brain damage due to complications.

It is also interesting to note that thimerosal (a mecury-based preservative, that some believe suggested a link between this preservative and autism) is no longer found in childhood vacs.
Personally the only vac I feel not necessary at an early age is the Hep B, given to newborns shortly after birth.

It is a personal choice to vacs or not, and parents are in the best position to make an informed choice for their child.

orange
03-06-2008, 04:01 PM
Ugh, I'm so done debating this.

I don't think what I said about some doctors was at all tactless. I didn't pin-point one doc & call him a greedy SOB or something. But yet, it's okay to be asked if I'm on crack? sheesh.

I just don't get how it's wrong to question the medical profession or doctors. I'm kind of shocked this has gotten you guys so riled up, to be honest. But oh well. I still stick by everything I said, I still feel words are being put into my mouth or at least what I've said is being twisted.

I didn't make a careless comment, I stand by my OPINION, it's your opinion that I'm wrong & you're allowed to have it...just as I'm allowed to have mine. I do really resent it being alluded to that I would think my own comment was careless...I certainly don't. & I'm just sick of, again, having words put in my mouth..."Or is W5 part of the grand conspiracy now too?"....again, when did I ever say there was a grand conspiracy. I just said I think it does happen, but not across the board. Never once mentioned a grand conspiracy. Don't be so dramatic.

It's okay you find my opinion personally annoying. I have no problem with that. I find it personally annoying when people feel the need to tell someone their opinion is wrong. Get off your high horse. Believe whatever you want for whatever reasons you want & I'll do the same.

This is no longer a debate about vaccinations or the issues with doctors, this has now become orange's mission to punish me for my opinion, get me to change it or in the least belittle it. Nonsensical view? lol. I'm a person who just so happens to have a different opinion than you. That makes it nonsensical, I guess ;) Everyone is not always going to just roll over & agree with you...& people are going to believe differently, no matter how much smack you talk.

From the get go I have told people to educate themselves & choose for themselves. & that's it. Case closed from me. I'm pregnant & don't need the stress of defending my opinion to someone that just seems to like to hear that their opinion is the right one.

I tried being conciliatory and even complimenting, but I guess that didn't work :p

So to be blunt, it always amazes me when people who apparently don't fully know how systems work (medical research or otherwise), and the types of people involved, make sweeping generalizations about those people's motivations.

Yes, sure, doctors don't speak out about vaccinations because it's "good for business" :rolleyes: MichelleM and I made it pretty clear how that viewpoint is absurd, so there's no point repeating it yet again. You didn't say the words "good for business", but that's the quite obvious description of what you said.

You can believe what you want, and I don't care if you agree. But when I see a person making a false statement and potentially "infecting" other people's views by making absurd claims and insulting entire professions (especially ones that have a fair amount of altruism and public service), I call them on it.

The bottom line is that this statement you made is wrong:
"Keep in mind doctors often benefit from children getting vaccinated & obviously so do the companies that make the vaccinations. Therefore it's very rare to find a doctor that would be against it."

With "often", "therefore", and "very rare" being the keywords that make it wrong.

As I said earlier, the debate about vaccines can stand on its own merit, as it has pros and cons... this seems like a good summary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversy

But the idea that most doctors support vaccines because it's "good for business", is just ridiculous.