Prophecy being fulfilled

[rhiley_08j]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/071226/world/year_climate_records

Those of you that believe in the bible...prophecy beginning to be fulfilled. Those of you that don't believe...prophecy fulfilled. People need to start opening their eyes, and realize what is happening. Read, become knowledgeable about what is going on around you. Ignorance will not change, Acceptance will.

[puppyluv]

I believe it has been ongoing for a long time..N.O to me was a signficant thing.

[lizard_lover]

Ok...some people do and do not believe in the bible, but I do not think you have the right to come here and push it on people like that. I will believe what i want. My eyes are open, and I know what is going on, but I do not believe in god.

[mommyd]

i don't think they were saying to read the bible.. but to read about what is going on around you, in the news and whatnot

[kaj27]

Open our eyes? Maybe it's the churches and various religions around the world that should be opening their eyes. Many are shut very closed.

[baseball 23]

The hypocrisy of most religions is astounding.

[puppyluv]

religion is man made.. God is not.

[rhiley_08j]

Religion is the downfall in man's belief in God, just as the bible prophesied. I have absolutely no need for religion. I think that if a person wants to know the truth about God and his will than they need to pick up his word and read it for themselves, without asking for outside assistance. People need to read it for what it is worth. Most that don't believe in God were either detered by religion or do not know about him. Bible prophecy regarding the last days has begun and it is becoming more prevalent every day. I am not trying to sway people's beliefs, personally what decisions a person makes is their own. All that I am saying is that prophecy is being fulfilled, and there will be many that deny it, just as prophecied, but when the time comes people cannot say that they didn't have the opportunity to know.

[lizard_lover]

yeah, why would I read the bible? Christianity is a complete copy of older religions, religions that were found 4000 years before christianity. They all go the same, and it is all in the stars. All religions are cults, whether or not you think that also is your thing. (and I do not mean cult as in mass suicide)

[puppyluv]

The Bible is a guide to living life in order to lead a better life that leads to God.

Not all tramscriptions are bland btw. I have the iversion....very good...understandable too

[FutureChief88]

So from someone Who doesnt know anything about the bible.. How much longer do they say we have?

[puppyluv]

No one knows the time or date...at least not on earth.

[FutureChief88]

Hmm... i just thought it may say a general time span..

[lizard_lover]

well according to when "god" created the world, it gives a general time span...but from those who know life was here before adam and eve...

[rhiley_08j]

We don't know when an exact time will be, but we know that the time will be near by the signs of the end.
What harm does it cause to have faith in God and follow his guidance? There is nothing that he teaches us that causes harm. I would rather acknowledge a book that was written thousands of years ago that prophesies what is happening today than to ignore it and be wrong.

[Mandi]

Didn't early scientists say this would happen too? Global warming ? Either way it's scary. I don't know much about the bible, and don't believe it a passage to heaven. I must say though, my curiosity is peeked about 'what will come'

[commkathy]

It says in the Bible that no one knows when it'll happen except God the father. Not even Jesus knows.

[FutureChief88]

We don't know when an exact time will be, but we know that the time will be near by the signs of the end.
What harm does it cause to have faith in God and follow his guidance? There is nothing that he teaches us that causes harm. I would rather acknowledge a book that was written thousands of years ago that prophesies what is happening today than to ignore it and be wrong.


The problem with having faith in god and following his guidance.. for me anyways, is IMO there has been more wars and killings and whatnot " in the name of god" than i care to be a part of. I know these are people.. and not god.. But if these Followers of god say that they were told by god to do these things.. I dont want to be taken under his wing. As someone said earlier.. Either way this is scary.. but i dont believe climate changes assume the end of the world is near. and if it is.. i would rather NOT know about it.. Either way we are all going to die someday, i guess i would choose (if i had the choice) to not know about it.. That way i would be able to enjoy the days i am here without worrying.. If you know what i mean.

[melissaanne]

While I am not a believer in God or religion, I do believe we are on a course of pure distruction. I have followed a few things and it is pretty crazy the simialrities between what has been happening and what the bible? ( correct me if I am wrong) has had to say about how it's all going to end.

Global warming is a serious thing and if we don't get out butts in gear it's going to be bad sonner than we think. Anyone watch Al Gore's " An Inconvient Truth" ? It'll open your eyes to alot I'm sure!!

[rhiley_08j]

The problem with having faith in god and following his guidance.. for me anyways, is IMO there has been more wars and killings and whatnot " in the name of god" than i care to be a part of. I know these are people.. and not god.. But if these Followers of god say that they were told by god to do these things.. I dont want to be taken under his wing. As someone said earlier.. Either way this is scary.. but i dont believe climate changes assume the end of the world is near. and if it is.. i would rather NOT know about it.. Either way we are all going to die someday, i guess i would choose (if i had the choice) to not know about it.. That way i would be able to enjoy the days i am here without worrying.. If you know what i mean.


The thing is that it is not God's will. Yes there was "righteous wars" before Jesus' time, but when Jesus came, he came with a new convenant with God's people. He taught love, and to turn the other cheek, and to "turn your swords into plow sheers". Those that stray from this way of thinking are following man's teaching, not God's.

We can all sit here and argue about who is right and who is wrong, but when the end comes the Bible says that all will know who he is. The Bible provides hope for the future for those who want to acknowledge it. It doesn't matter what variation of it that various religions believe, it is what each person believes in their hearts that is between them and their maker.

Like I said I have no use for religion because it cloud's people views, and it causes many to loose faith in God because of false teachings. Those that really want to know God and what he plans for mankind, can pick up the Bible and read for themselves.

[wookiee]

Well I beleve in GOD, But I don't beleive in the catholic relgion.
The catholic religion is just like a government. They lie and keep things from the people. The Bible has been altered over time, unlike the Koran which it is still in its origiinal state.

So that being said, how can one beleive in something when its been changed over the course of time??? Doesn't make sense.

There have been many statements that the world will end on this day or this date so many times in the past and it hasn't happen.

Global warnming is not happening cause the bible says so or god, its happening because we caused it to happen. plain and simple! Just complete nonsense the bible is.

[rhiley_08j]

Well I beleve in GOD, But I don't beleive in the catholic relgion.
The catholic religion is just like a government. They lie and keep things from the people. The Bible has been altered over time, unlike the Koran which it is still in its origiinal state.

So that being said, how can one beleive in something when its been changed over the course of time??? Doesn't make sense.

There have been many statements that the world will end on this day or this date so many times in the past and it hasn't happen.

Global warnming is not happening cause the bible says so or god, its happening because we caused it to happen. plain and simple! Just complete nonsense the bible is.

Global warming is happening because the world is under Satan's rule, and just as the Bible prophesied man will lead himself to his own demise.

[wookiee]

Global warming is happening because the world is under Satan's rule, and just as the Bible prophesied man will lead himself to his own demise.


Oh ok, and can you show me where it states what you just said for this part
"Global warming is happening because the world is under Satan's rule"

[lizard_lover]

yeah...Global warming is happening because we pollute, and look at the refineries just in Saint John! Yeah, Satan put those there...I believe that was done by the greedy multinational coorporations!

[wookiee]

Rhiley,

I just want you to know I am not trying to argue or anything, I am just curious.

I have learned about the catholic relgion and I am currently learning muslim religion and will be learning about one more religion.

[wookiee]

yeah...Global warming is happening because we pollute, and look at the refineries just in Saint John! Yeah, Satan put those there...I believe that was done by the greedy multinational coorporations!


I agree with ya! You know my familly, which are Lebanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese), they are very religious people and even some of them are questioning the bible now and whats said in it.

[rhiley_08j]

yeah...Global warming is happening because we pollute, and look at the refineries just in Saint John! Yeah, Satan put those there...I believe that was done by the greedy multinational coorporations!

And where does greed stem from? Satan or God? The world we live in today is under the influence of the devil. This is mankind's test to prove the devil wrong and we are failing miserably. We question God, when we should really be questioning ourselves on why we allow ourselves to be swayed towards what is wrong and ungodly.

[rhiley_08j]

I agree with ya! You know my familly, which are Lebanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese), they are very religious people and even some of them are questioning the bible now and whats said in it.


The fact that they are questioning the Bible, is in fact prophecy being fulfilled. The Bible says that as the end draws near many will loose their way because of false teachings. As we go further into the final days, many, many more will stray from God, because they do not truly know him. They allow themselves to believe false teachings, (of course not realizing they are doing so). Like I said before, if a person wants to know the truth about God, it's there for them to read.

[FutureChief88]

If you believe that the bible is truth..

which i dont.. hence why i have never read it..

[wookiee]

And where does greed stem from? Satan or God? The world we live in today is under the influence of the devil. This is mankind's test to prove the devil wrong and we are failing miserably.


You know if we were under the devils control, it would be a much worse place to be then it is now. I do not beleive greed has anything to do with the devil and know does it state that in the bible.
But if it does then please show me where?

I respect everybody religious beliefs, but please back up your statements.

Buts hard to back up when the bilble and the testaments have been altered numourse times. :confused:

[rhiley_08j]

Rhiley,

I just want you to know I am not trying to argue or anything, I am just curious.

I have learned about the catholic relgion and I am currently learning muslim religion and will be learning about one more religion.


If you are on a spiritual search, maybe instead of wanting to follow one specific religion maybe you might want to learn about the one being that all these religions feel the need to worship. Yes there are many religions, all of which have similarities as well as differences. The thing is that there has only been one true God who man has distorted or made variations of over the centuries.

[lizard_lover]

I believe in god, but not the form from any religion. And yeah, I am not going to read a bible that no one actually factually knows for sure was made by his words...Did you know if you eat moldy rye bread it is like eating a wack of acid and you get super high? Maybe the person who wrote the bible ate too much of it and was halucinating the whole thing...not likely, but I mean Do you personally have proof of the bibles validity?

[rhiley_08j]

Buts hard to back up when the bilble and the testaments have been altered numourse times. :confused:


That is also prophesied in the Bible, and God says that it is a gross sin to add to or take away from his word.

No offense wookie, and with all do respect, I don't have to back up what I believe, what I believe, more than anything comes from the heart. I know that the time will come when we will all be given the answers. I just want to make sure that I am on the right page when the time comes. Like I said before I would rather believe in something that is only meant to make me a better person, and add to my life, than not to because I refused to have a little faith in things that are beyond my human understanding.

[wookiee]

If you are on a spiritual search, maybe instead of wanting to follow one specific religion maybe you might want to learn about the one being that all these religions feel the need to worship. Yes there are many religions, all of which have similarities as well as differences. The thing is that there has only been one true God who man has distorted or made variations of over the centuries.


Well of course there is only one true god, and the muslim relgion is the only relgion in the world that states that, not catholitic, etc.

[rhiley_08j]

I believe in god, but not the form from any religion. And yeah, I am not going to read a bible that no one actually factually knows for sure was made by his words...Did you know if you eat moldy rye bread it is like eating a wack of acid and you get super high? Maybe the person who wrote the bible ate too much of it and was halucinating the whole thing...not likely, but I mean Do you personally have proof of the bibles validity?


That is why people feel the way they do towards God, because they want proof of everything. If they can't see it than it musn't be real. Honestly, what is written in the Bible that will harm you. Why question that it is God's word, when the only thing it is meant to do is guide you through a meaningful, happy life?

[rhiley_08j]

If you believe that the bible is truth..

which i dont.. hence why i have never read it..

No offense, but if you have never read it, how do you know it's not true. You don't know what it says, just like many others who deny it but have never read it.

Maybe people are afraid to know the truth. See once a person knows what is required of them than they become accountable. Don't get me wrong, this applies to me just as much as anyone else.

[Nail]

I don't really think you have much of a debate here Lizard Lover. All you can do is mock Christianity's validity? Since when has Science proved anything about evolution or cholesterol? You walk on a very biased line. Furthermore, you havent even touched on ANYTHING this thread was about. You just want to bukkake all over religion and shovel YOUR beliefs of atheism on us. Thanks, but no.

[lizard_lover]

I have read the bible, a couple of times. And I do not agree with most of it. I have no proof that the bible was written from the word of god, but have proof that there were dinosaurs and that we have evolved...so what do you think dinosaurs were a load of crap? What about evolution?

[lizard_lover]

I don't really think you have much of a debate here Lizard Lover. All you can do is mock Christianity's validity? Since when has Science prooved anything about evolution or cholesterol? You walk on a very biased line. Furthermore, you havent even touched on ANYTHING this thread was about. You just want to bukkake all over religion and shovel YOUR beliefs of atheism on us. Thanks, but no.

I have NOT shoved anything on anyone, I am stating my opinion, and I am more than allowed to do that. Rhiley is more or less the person pushing crap, telling us that we will belost if we do not go along with his stupid beliefs. Yes, I call them stupid. Tell me to open my eyes...yeah right do so yourself. Wanna know what I think about global warming? What the thread was originally about? I think it is caused by US, not Satan, and I DID state that earlier, you just have to open YOUR eyes and see that!

[wookiee]

I don't really think you have much of a debate here Lizard Lover. All you can do is mock Christianity's validity? Since when has Science proved anything about evolution or cholesterol? You walk on a very biased line. Furthermore, you havent even touched on ANYTHING this thread was about. You just want to bukkake all over religion and shovel YOUR beliefs of atheism on us. Thanks, but no.


maybe you should be more respectful of Lizards opinion eh?

Actually science has proved more then the so call holy bible....way more!!!

[Nail]

Historically, Deities have worked through people or groups of people. This is not so different. Hypothetically, "They" could be "working" for Satan. It doesnt mean that "They" all sat down to read his Emails together. They are just falling into the role. Again, i have my own opinions about these "Prophecies", and i agree that no one should tell you when, how, or what to open....But the world is getting much more predictable now, no?

[Nail]

maybe you should be more respectful of Lizards opinion eh?

Actually science has proved more then the so call holy bible....way more!!!

Heh, science usually discovers how they screwed up in the past...like Global warming. "Oh, whoops, we destroyed the earth."

[wookiee]

nails and Rhily.

Question: Are you both catholic? If so, how can you beleive the bilble if its been altered? I have asked this about 3 times now and no one comments on it...is it because you can't comment on it cause its true?
People should be able to back up what they say and we have the right to ask :)

In all Honesty, I hate the cathlotic religion for what it is. The relgion is so sneaky and hide information from there own beleivers...how can anybody follow something when it lies to you.

[lizard_lover]

Yeah, but man is greedy. No one cares what they do to the earth because the effects of it will take place probably after you die. "Heck, I might as well throw all my garbage in the ocean because by the time it starts to cause a huge issue, I will be dead so who cares!"

[wookiee]

Heh, science usually discovers how they screwed up in the past...like Global warming. "Oh, whoops, we destroyed the earth."

So are your saying dinosaurs screwed up?? lmao.....please come off it.
Science isn't just there to show what screw ups happen...lol

[lizard_lover]

nails and Rhily.

Question: Are you both catholic? If so, how can you beleive the bilble if its been altered? I have asked this about 3 times now and no one comments on it...is it because you can't comment on it cause its true?
People should be able to back up what they say and we have the right to ask :)

In all Honesty, I hate the cathlotic religion for what it is. The relgion is so sneaky and hide information from there own beleivers...how can anybody follow something when it lies to you.

I think me and you are on pretty much the same page here.

[wookiee]

I think me and you are on pretty much the same page here.


I have to agree with you there.

I am very open minded about religion cause of my family back ground, but man when it comes to some religions, they just don't know how to back up there own satements in anyway.....

Personally what I think is, maybe people turn to religion cause they feel guilty for what they have done maybe? Or maybe its because there afraid of death and want to hope there's another life for them when they pass on.

[FutureChief88]

No offense, but if you have never read it, how do you know it's not true. You don't know what it says, just like many others who deny it but have never read it.

Maybe people are afraid to know the truth. See once a person knows what is required of them than they become accountable. Don't get me wrong, this applies to me just as much as anyone else.


I have never read it with my own eyes.. But i have heard about it from many others.. Including my father who is an avid reader of the bible.. and believes greatly in these "prophecies". I have heard enough about "God's Word" to base an opinion on it.. It is a book that has been re-printed MANY times and surely altered by Someone out there.. I mean who used the first printer to print this document? did they write it word for word?

I just believe there are too many possibilities of an alteration to believe what i may or may not read in the bible.. Isint the old saying believe none of what you read and only half of what you see?

This is hard for me anyway.. being the Agnostic person i am.. I am not even sure if i believe there is a god or not..but thats a whole other story..

to me the bible is just as relevant as the writings of Nostradamas.
I think the human race always needs something to believe in.. Thats why they hang on to god so tightly..

I do agree though, that anything that happend is happening because of us.. whether that is part of the bible or not..

[FutureChief88]

? I think it is caused by US, not Satan, and I DID state that earlier, you just have to open YOUR eyes and see that!

i think The US IS satan! lol

[wookiee]

This thread was about satan/global warming.

So if any of you beleive that this was predicted in the bible or that satan did it, you need wake up and stop smoking so much green.

Global warming was caused by humans!!!!! all of us!!


Oh wait as nails said maybe that person works for satan??? tsk.....please....I sure satan could handle his own work and would be pretty open about it and not hiding.


Here's to the bible..:thumbsdown:


PS. and they wonder why some people convert to muslim now a days....its because that religion doesn't lie to there beleivers.

[wookiee]

i think The US IS satan! lol


LMAO!!! oh I bet ya half of the world would beleive that....maybe they work for satan eh? lol

[rhiley_08j]

I don't really think you have much of a debate here Lizard Lover. All you can do is mock Christianity's validity? Since when has Science proved anything about evolution or cholesterol? You walk on a very biased line. Furthermore, you havent even touched on ANYTHING this thread was about. You just want to bukkake all over religion and shovel YOUR beliefs of atheism on us. Thanks, but no.

I have read the bible, a couple of times. And I do not agree with most of it. I have no proof that the bible was written from the word of god, but have proof that there were dinosaurs and that we have evolved...so what do you think dinosaurs were a load of crap? What about evolution?


I do not dispute that there was dinosaurs, it doesn't say in the Bible that there wasn't. What I do dispute is man's attempt to date things that they find. Carbon dating is something that the world has deemed as accurate and there is no way to dispute that.

As for evolution, I don't think it's so much as evolving as it is adapting. Poeple can say they are two and the same but one we as human's can control the other we cannot.

I did not intend for this to cause a rift, but in all honesty I am not surprised because the majority of the time that is where these types of discussions lead. I have the outmost respect for what everyone believes and you are all entitled to your own beliefs. That something we all come to on our own.

[mizunderstood]

OK, first of all my views on religion, beliefs, and the "bible" may seem jaded and wrong to some people but here's my opinion.
I do not believe that this global warming is PROOF of some obscure prophecy coming true. Yes it is said in the "bible" that there will come wars, famine, pestilences and many other things. Yes some of these things have come true, at various times throughout history but to me that does not PROVE that the end is near. I believe mankind has done these things to themselves. Each and everyone of the "signs" have scientific reasons and explinations. My theory is that either this is all just a conincidence or maybe it is mankind bringing these prophecies to life.
My personal belief is that I will not belive the teachings in a "bible" which is supposed to be the word of god, yet it has been changed hundreds of times throughout history. Also the other thing that makes me not believe in the bible is that the new testiment was not even written at the time of christ. The new testiments were written 40-50 years after christ. How does someone remember word for word what was said 40 years earlier. There is no evidence that the words of god were actually documented at the time of these so called events. If someone wants to find inner spirituality, peace, and devine enlitenment then sitting around reading the bible every nite is not the way. I have read the bible cover to cover over 20 times at various points in my life. I think that the bible is a good fictional novel at best. It suits different peoples needs, in different ways at different times in their lives. I lost my faith in "religion" after reading contradiction after contradiction in the bible. I chose to believe in a faith that does not hide things, that is honest and that does not contradict themselves constantly.
Just my 2 cents. Thanks;.

[rhiley_08j]

OK, first of all my views on religion, beliefs, and the "bible" may seem jaded and wrong to some people but here's my opinion.
I do not believe that this global warming is PROOF of some obscure prophecy coming true. Yes it is said in the "bible" that there will come wars, famine, pestilences and many other things. Yes some of these things have come true, at various times throughout history but to me that does not PROVE that the end is near. I believe mankind has done these things to themselves. Each and everyone of the "signs" have scientific reasons and explinations. My theory is that either this is all just a conincidence or maybe it is mankind bringing these prophecies to life.
My personal belief is that I will not belive the teachings in a "bible" which is supposed to be the word of god, yet it has been changed hundreds of times throughout history. Also the other thing that makes me not believe in the bible is that the new testiment was not even written at the time of christ. The new testiments were written 40-50 years after christ. How does someone remember word for word what was said 40 years earlier. There is no evidence that the words of god were actually documented at the time of these so called events. If someone wants to find inner spirituality, peace, and devine enlitenment then sitting around reading the bible every nite is not the way. I have read the bible cover to cover over 20 times at various points in my life. I think that the bible is a good fictional novel at best. It suits different peoples needs, in different ways at different times in their lives. I lost my faith in "religion" after reading contradiction after contradiction in the bible. I chose to believe in a faith that does not hide things, that is honest and that does not contradict themselves constantly.
Just my 2 cents. Thanks;.

The Bible does not contradict itself, people's interpretations of the Bible contradict each other. Everyone is so into trying to disprove the Bible, when that is not the issue. Who cares if people dispute when it was written, by who, etc. The fact is that the underlying message in the Bible is about love, and life, and living a life of love. What can possibly be wrong with that message? It shouldn't be a matter of proving others wrong or displaying hatred for one another. When it becomes that, than Satan had suceeded in drawing people away from God, which is his sole purpose.

[wookiee]

OK, first of all my views on religion, beliefs, and the "bible" may seem jaded and wrong to some people but here's my opinion.
I do not believe that this global warming is PROOF of some obscure prophecy coming true. Yes it is said in the "bible" that there will come wars, famine, pestilences and many other things. Yes some of these things have come true, at various times throughout history but to me that does not PROVE that the end is near. I believe mankind has done these things to themselves. Each and everyone of the "signs" have scientific reasons and explinations. My theory is that either this is all just a conincidence or maybe it is mankind bringing these prophecies to life.
My personal belief is that I will not belive the teachings in a "bible" which is supposed to be the word of god, yet it has been changed hundreds of times throughout history. Also the other thing that makes me not believe in the bible is that the new testiment was not even written at the time of christ. The new testiments were written 40-50 years after christ. How does someone remember word for word what was said 40 years earlier. There is no evidence that the words of god were actually documented at the time of these so called events. If someone wants to find inner spirituality, peace, and devine enlitenment then sitting around reading the bible every nite is not the way. I have read the bible cover to cover over 20 times at various points in my life. I think that the bible is a good fictional novel at best. It suits different peoples needs, in different ways at different times in their lives. I lost my faith in "religion" after reading contradiction after contradiction in the bible. I chose to believe in a faith that does not hide things, that is honest and that does not contradict themselves constantly.
Just my 2 cents. Thanks;.


Well said! wow! You make some great points in your belief. :thumbsup:

[wookiee]

The Bible does not contradict itself, people's interpretations of the Bible contradict each other. Everyone is so into trying to disprove the Bible, when that is not the issue. Who cares if people dispute when it was written, by who, etc. The fact is that the underlying message in the Bible is about love, and life, and living a life of love. What can possibly be wrong with that message? It shouldn't be a matter of proving others wrong or displaying hatred for one another. When it becomes that, than Satan had suceeded in drawing people away from God, which is his sole purpose.


Well Rhiley,

People dispute the bible cause its been changed/altered, just like the testiments as well. So why wouldn't people dispute it when its been changed a number of times?
I mean heck, Jesus was not married or with a woman, but people are learning different now that he was with a woman.

The bible should not be touched at all or altered just like the Koran.

[Mandi]

you know... most people can read a horoscope and find some way it relates into their own lives.
I have never completely read the bible nor will I, but do believe there are references to dinosaurs in it. (Leviathan and Behemoth, Leviathan breathed fire... yeah sounds like a crocodile to me.)
There are some nifty little things that have been happening though that would mirror these 'prophecies' Like in Australia a couple years ago there were more shark attacks than there had been in the last 10. But again, you read a horoscope and find a way it relates to your life. If you WANT to believe it you will. If you don't you find a way not to.

[FutureChief88]

you know... most people can read a horoscope and find some way it relates into their own lives.
I have never completely read the bible nor will I, but do believe there are references to dinosaurs in it. (Leviathan and Behemoth, Leviathan breathed fire... yeah sounds like a crocodile to me.)
There are some nifty little things that have been happening though that would mirror these 'prophecies' Like in Australia a couple years ago there were more shark attacks than there had been in the last 10. But again, you read a horoscope and find a way it relates to your life. If you WANT to believe it you will. If you don't you find a way not to.


Well said.. :)

[mizunderstood]

The Bible does not contradict itself, people's interpretations of the Bible contradict each other. Everyone is so into trying to disprove the Bible, when that is not the issue. Who cares if people dispute when it was written, by who, etc. The fact is that the underlying message in the Bible is about love, and life, and living a life of love. What can possibly be wrong with that message? It shouldn't be a matter of proving others wrong or displaying hatred for one another. When it becomes that, than Satan had suceeded in drawing people away from God, which is his sole purpose.

I have read and re read the bible numerous times and I can point out at least 50 contradictions. My favorite contradiction is that god loves everyone, that he created them in his own image, that he will love you no matter what, etc. YET the bible says and I quote. Lev 20:13 If any man lieth with another man as he lieth with a woman, both them shall surely be put to death, their blood cast upon them. How is that not a contradiction? How is that an intrepretation? Pretty straightforward and clear don't you think?

"The fact is that the underlying message in the Bible is about love, and life, and living a life of love. What can possibly be wrong with that message?"
At face value there is nothing wrong with that. Until you have really studied, learned, and educated yourself on the "truths" and the underlying messages. I feel I do live a life of love, and you do not see me standing on my soapbox preaching my personal views, nor do you see me reading some "religious book" daily or attending church services.
I respect everyone's personal opinion on their choice of religion(or non religion as the case may be) I personally have an issue with someone choosing to spout off unsupported "facts" and force others to see their point of view on such a debatable topic, such as religion, especially in such a media as a online discussion board. I believe there have been many a great man rise and fall by doing just that. Many a man has tried to point to the end of days through these so called "signs" since the dawn of time, and they all have yet to be right.
"Everyone is so into trying to disprove the Bible, when that is not the issue. Who cares if people dispute when it was written, by who, etc. "
I am not trying to disprove the bible, I am merly giving you factual information to support my view on the topic. I was always raised to have evidence to back up and support what you are trying to argue. People on here and everywhere are always saying do not take the written word (on the net, paper, book, etc) as complete and accurate. That motto should be true for the bible as well. I have studied religions for more than 10 years, I love to learn new things, so please if you can prove what you say and have an open minded view on religion feel free to respond. Until you can do that, please do not push your religious beliefs and views on others. I do not want to hear about some apocolypse, rapture, end of days, etc unless you have hard evidence to back it up. I do not come into your home and push my personal beliefs on you, please respect us in the same manner.
As far as your comment "Who cares if people dispute when it was written, by who, etc." I care. If I am going to put my life, my faith, my future into a belief (or religion) I am pretty sure that I want to know who wrote it, why they wrote it, how, when, for what reason, who paid them to do it, etc, all these things factor into my faith in organized religion. I mean come on if you found out that the bible was written by, let's say GEORGE BUSH JR. Are you going to have faith in that? Are you going to trust what is said/written? Are you going to wonder why he wrote it? What are the motives? etc. To me it is very important to know what led to the writing of this "important document" the center of my belief system, and the bases on which I live my life.
Do you even know when the "bible" as it is today was written? Do you know why it was written? Or whom had the control over what was said it the bible? Who had the final say in what made it to print and what did not? You might be interested in that little bit of information. Also I love that certain religions have a great way of putting a distorted spin or view on things that are said or written in the bible. Great example of that is Mary Magdalene. The catholic church made her out to be a whore and a prostatute. When in actuality she was none of these things she was a devote follower of Christ.It was Pope Gregory I in 591 that defined her as the fallen one. His confusion between the different Mary's of the bible is what led to Mary Magdalene being forever thought of as a whore.
Thank you for letting me voice my opinion and I will jump down off my soap box now... :) Have a good nite all:)

[mizunderstood]

Well said! wow! You make some great points in your belief. :thumbsup:

Thanks wookiee!

[omyindeed]

I am confused I hope someone can help me out here and just to make it clear before this thread I knew little to nothing about the Qur’an I guess I was like a lot of people thinking radicals used it for excusing themselves for strapping on a bomb and killing innocent people so I have to say thank you for bringing it up so I could get a little education on but here is one passage from it <O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
“It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong"<O:p</O:p
<O:p
So it seems to me to thumbs down the gospel would be the same as thumb downing the Qur’an but it is stated the Qur’an is true and does not lie Which one is it? <O:p</O:p
Anyway ,it is a pretty long article very interesting though …. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an<O:p</O:p

[cornerofeden]

<center>Has the Bible been lost, altered or corrupted over time?</center>

When we read the Bible today can we be assured that we are reading in our language the same word of God that was contained in the original manuscripts? It is often claimed by skeptics and agnostics that we cannot be sure of this. They point out that the common English Bible, the King James Version, is based upon late medieval manuscripts and that in these manuscripts there are thousands of variations or differences. They point to the later English translations that differ from the King James, not only in the rendering of the language, but often in whole verses, sentences, or even paragraphs being left out. They say here is confusion, and since we don't have the original autographs, we don't really know that we have the Bible.
In the face of these doubts the informed Christian and student of the Bible affirms his complete confidence in the fact that we have God's inspired word today. Modern studies and discoveries make this even more certain now than ever before. In the first place, it must be admitted that the early English translations were based upon Greek manuscripts which were the results of hundreds of years of hand copying. But even so, the variations do not in any substantial way affect the message of the Bible. When all corrections are made upon the basis of better and earlier evidences, no doctrine, no substantial fact of Christian history is affected.
Modern versions of the New Testament are no longer made from Erasmus' Greek Testament of 1516. Our scientifically edited Greek Testaments of today, such as Westcott-Hort, Nesley, or the American Bible Society's new edition, are based upon the earliest and most concrete evidence. Anyone who would argue that these New Testaments do not contain the original text would thereby confess his ignorance of the history of the transmission of the Bible and the science of textual criticism.
The evidence behind such a modern edition of the Greek New Testament, is threefold. First, manuscript evidence. Second, the evidence from early versions. Third, the evidence from the quotations of the Greek scriptures by the Greek fathers. Any one of these types of evidence is enough to confirm the authenticity of the original text. Therefore, they form a tripod of evidence which is overwhelming. "In the mouth of two or three witnesses, shall every word be established" II Corinthians 13:1.
A whole book could be written on each type of evidence, but it is enough to note, for example, that practically every verse of the New Testament in Greek can be recovered from quotations of the New Testament by the Greek fathers (or scholars) in their writings. Again, versions or translations of the New Testament into Syriac, Old Latin, the Egyptian dialects, etc. were made beginning from three or four decades after the completion of the canon of the New Testament. Scholars with knowledge in these languages can verify the Greek text and the way these translations read. Most important is the overwhelming evidence from the Green manuscripts, the English and American Revised Versions of 1880 and 1901 were based primarily on the great Greek manuscripts of the fourth and fifth centuries. And so abundant have been the discoveries in the past sixty-five years that we can now go nearly two hundred years farther back with the evidence. Such great textual discoveries as the papyrus manuscripts of Chester Batey; the Bodlar manuscript of John and Luke, enrich our knowledge beyond the fondest dreams of textual critics of the last century, and still the sands of Egypt and the Middle East continue to yield treasures. Surely, in God's providence, such discoveries are being brought forth in the modern dark ages of doubt to light the way to faith in God's Holy Word. With such firm confidence in the original text we stand upon the fi m rock of God's immutable truth. Our Lord himself said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away" (Matthew 24:35). Surely the God who made this world with all its complexities is capable of preserving his word for all generations.

<center>http://www.bible.ca/seekers.gif (http://www.bible.ca/seekers.map)</center>

[cornerofeden]

www.fulfilledprophecy.com (http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com) for anyone who may be interested in prophecy

[chevybeerman]

Well my opinon on the bible is yeah there probably was some sort of scripture wrote and they may or may not have been a man who died for peoples sins and whatnot.however i do not belive there will be someone coming back. as far as i belive once your dead thats it not matter who you are.I belive in the possibility in a god ,but belive as long as you live you life caring about others, and doing what you can when you can for them ,without doing things that are moraly wrong ,then if there is a god, then i belive thats what will matter to him.

[JR3282]

Ok...some people do and do not believe in the bible, but I do not think you have the right to come here and push it on people like that. I will believe what i want. My eyes are open, and I know what is going on, but I do not believe in god.

How is it "pushing it on people" when you are the one that clicked on the link?

[rhiley_08j]

All that I have to say is that people are entitled to their beliefs. I do not have to defend what I believe, and I refuse to. When the time comes, all will find out, and our Heavenly father will again be placed on high. Until that time be weary of the negative influences of the Devil, and those that believe in his word, maintain your faith and keep strong, the worst is yet to come.

[Mandi]

I refuse to believe that every negative thing I do or believe is the cause of the devil. Greed... Greed is a human flaw. God made humans, where does the devil fit into that equation? I don't even know what to believe. Having 'blind faith' is so difficult. I like to analyze everything and break it down to what makes sense to me. Words are not going to make me believe. The only things that have me thinking there *might* be a God are my children and the vastness/beauty of space. It's hard to think that those things are made by science. But for God to say that we will die if we're homosexuals... when an earthly set of parents can accept and love their children who are gay it makes no sense to me that the one who MADE them that in the first place will condemn them to hell. It is not a choice.

[cornerofeden]

Blind faith? (http://jasscience.blogspot.com/2007/10/blind-faith.html)


People of faith familiar with the discoveries and achievements of science enthusiastically affirm the value of science in affirming the existence of a loving, powerful God. This is not just wishful thinking on our part. The universe is governed by laws and principles which shout consistency and predictability. The laws are written in mathematical language and operate in an identical fashion everywhere in the universe. The Bible speaks in many passages that God created the universe and also set in place the laws by which it operates. This is true in both the physical universe (Proverbs 8:22-31, Isaiah 40:21-28) and the biological realm (Job 38-41, Psalm 139:13-16).

The cosmos and the biosphere "speak" (Psalm 19:1-4) in a clear voice. In our cosmic dimension of time, cause and effect phenomena occur. This means when we observe the effect of an orderly, physical universe operating according to regular, mathematically quantifiable laws, we may conclude the physical universe itself had a CAUSE. It also means when we observe complex living systems operating according to orderly, predictable principles, those living systems and their orderly operation had a CAUSE. Atheists and agnostics disbelieve or question the existence of such a CAUSE. They assert that order somehow formed from disorder, chance, and randomness. This belief demands a great deal of blind faith.

Christians are often accused of having blind faith. Quite the contrary, our faith (let's call it a "belief system" instead) is based on logic, reason, and evidence. Unbelievers frequently accuse Christians of being short on these qualities. Christians who put forth the effort to strengthen their belief system with careful, diligent study, however, should never be accused of having blind faith.

[Mandi]

Blind faith? (http://jasscience.blogspot.com/2007/10/blind-faith.html)


People of faith familiar with the discoveries and achievements of science enthusiastically affirm the value of science in affirming the existence of a loving, powerful God. This is not just wishful thinking on our part. The universe is governed by laws and principles which shout consistency and predictability. The laws are written in mathematical language and operate in an identical fashion everywhere in the universe. The Bible speaks in many passages that God created the universe and also set in place the laws by which it operates. This is true in both the physical universe (Proverbs 8:22-31, Isaiah 40:21-28) and the biological realm (Job 38-41, Psalm 139:13-16).

The cosmos and the biosphere "speak" (Psalm 19:1-4) in a clear voice. In our cosmic dimension of time, cause and effect phenomena occur. This means when we observe the effect of an orderly, physical universe operating according to regular, mathematically quantifiable laws, we may conclude the physical universe itself had a CAUSE. It also means when we observe complex living systems operating according to orderly, predictable principles, those living systems and their orderly operation had a CAUSE. Atheists and agnostics disbelieve or question the existence of such a CAUSE. They assert that order somehow formed from disorder, chance, and randomness. This belief demands a great deal of blind faith.

Christians are often accused of having blind faith. Quite the contrary, our faith (let's call it a "belief system" instead) is based on logic, reason, and evidence. Unbelievers frequently accuse Christians of being short on these qualities. Christians who put forth the effort to strengthen their belief system with careful, diligent study, however, should never be accused of having blind faith.


So because science is predictable God must have made it? Don't scientists believe in evolution, and thusly could our universe have not evolved into something that is predictable and works? Where did God come from. WHERE did he originate... He's just there. Nothing made him, he's just a being that made something so vast it would crush your mind if you could comprehend a fraction of it. Did God happen by chance? how did he come into existence?


blah. It's just so hard to decide what to believe. It's really hard to decide.

[cornerofeden]

How good do I have to be to go to heaven?
Most people understand that doing evil can keep us out of heaven. But few realize the Bible also teaches that doing good cannot get us in.
None of us could ever gain enough merit to deserve heaven. We are sinful, and God's standard is utter perfection. Jesus said, 'Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdowm of heaven' (Matthew 5:20). He added, 'You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect' (v.48).

[rhiley_08j]

People need to stop worrying about facts, and proof, which everyone could argue about to no end. Deep down, if people open their heart and want to know, the answer lies within. Everything that makes us human, what gives us our heart, what makes us who we are, what gives us all the amazing capablilites that we are capable of come not nearly by chance. For as long as humans have been alive, they have always believed in a greater being of one form or another, and that being has always been there, many times having his heart broken over and over again as we have taken away from him and given to others to satisfy our own desires. The great thing is that no matter how far a person has turned from him, he is always there when they come back. God bless each and everyone of us, and may those that truly want to find him do so.

[Mandi]

How good do I have to be to go to heaven?
Most people understand that doing evil can keep us out of heaven. But few realize the Bible also teaches that doing good cannot get us in.
None of us could ever gain enough merit to deserve heaven. We are sinful, and God's standard is utter perfection. Jesus said, 'Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdowm of heaven' (Matthew 5:20). He added, 'You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect' (v.48).


yeah so if we're not perfect as God, we're damned forever to the pits of hell and eternal torture... That sounds more vengeful than like an all loving father.

[cornerofeden]

Where did God come from?
We can only partially comprehend the notion of God's existence. To do so, we must use human concepts to speak of God: "without beginning or end"; "eternal"; "infinite", etc. The Bible says that He has always existed: " . . . even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God" (Psalm 90:2). And, "Your throne is established from of old; Thou art from everlasting" (Psalm 93:2). Quite simply, God has no beginning and no end. So, where did God come from? He didn't. He always was.
To us, the notion of time is linear. One second follows the next, one minute is after another. We get older, not younger and we cannot repeat the minutes that have passed us by. We have all seen the time lines on charts: early time is on the left and later time is on the right. We see nations, people's lives, and plans mapped out on straight lines from left to right. We see a beginning and an end. But God is "beyond the chart." He has no beginning or end. He simply has always been.
Also, physics has shown that time is a property that is the result of the existence of matter. Time exists when matter exists. Time has even been called the fourth dimension. But God is not matter. In fact, God created matter. He created the universe. So, time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing and time had no meaning (except conceptually), no relation to Him. Therefore, to ask where God came from is to ask a question that cannot really be applied to God in the first place. Because time has no meaning with God in relation to who He is, eternity is also not something that can be absolutely related to God. God is even beyond eternity.
Eternity is a term that we finite creatures use to express the concept of something that has no end -- and/or no beginning. Since God has no beginning or end, He has no beginning. This is because He is outside of time.

[rhiley_08j]

yeah so if we're not perfect as God, we're damned forever to the pits of hell and eternal torture... That sounds more vengeful than like an all loving father.


I don't see where it says that because we don't go to heaven that we are to be damned to hell. I am not saying that I agree or disagree with the concept of what is being said here, but instead of putting up a gaurd of negativity, maybe it means that God has a grander plan for us....

[Mandi]

Where did God come from?
We can only partially comprehend the notion of God's existence. To do so, we must use human concepts to speak of God: "without beginning or end"; "eternal"; "infinite", etc. The Bible says that He has always existed: " . . . even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God" (Psalm 90:2). And, "Your throne is established from of old; Thou art from everlasting" (Psalm 93:2). Quite simply, God has no beginning and no end. So, where did God come from? He didn't. He always was.
To us, the notion of time is linear. One second follows the next, one minute is after another. We get older, not younger and we cannot repeat the minutes that have passed us by. We have all seen the time lines on charts: early time is on the left and later time is on the right. We see nations, people's lives, and plans mapped out on straight lines from left to right. We see a beginning and an end. But God is "beyond the chart." He has no beginning or end. He simply has always been.
Also, physics has shown that time is a property that is the result of the existence of matter. Time exists when matter exists. Time has even been called the fourth dimension. But God is not matter. In fact, God created matter. He created the universe. So, time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing and time had no meaning (except conceptually), no relation to Him. Therefore, to ask where God came from is to ask a question that cannot really be applied to God in the first place. Because time has no meaning with God in relation to who He is, eternity is also not something that can be absolutely related to God. God is even beyond eternity.
Eternity is a term that we finite creatures use to express the concept of something that has no end -- and/or no beginning. Since God has no beginning or end, He has no beginning. This is because He is outside of time.
You know;... I read all that, and all I got from it is. " I don't know."

[Mandi]

I don't see where it says that because we don't go to heaven that we are to be damned to hell. I am not saying that I agree or disagree with the concept of what is being said here, but instead of putting up a gaurd of negativity, maybe it means that God has a grander plan for us....

So there isn't just heaven or hell?

[cornerofeden]

yeah so if we're not perfect as God, we're damned forever to the pits of hell and eternal torture... That sounds more vengeful than like an all loving father.
I know you are looking for answers like so many, but I will not debate a relationship that I have with God...
God is not looking for perfect. If that was the case you wouldn't need salvation. Not one is perfect..the difference is those who have received salvation knew they needed God because of our imperfections.
By the way: the "loving father" did a lot for us. He gave His only Son to die on the cross for you, me and everyone else that wants to believe and receive it. Jesus suffered more than we can imagine, but because he loved us He did this for us.
Christians battle with their flesh (feelings and emotions) everyday...we are far from perfect but because we accepted the gift God has given us (his son Jesus) we were made perfect in His sight. And when we sin we ask for forgiveness and ask for His help especially in areas where we are weak.
Did you have a relationship with your husband or boyfriend? How did you do this? Of course it was by spending time to get to know him, and that is what we need to do to know God and have a relationship. We need to read His word and get to understand who He is and how He feels ...just like you would take the time for someone you love. And once you get to know the heart of God you will fall in love with Him. But it won't happen here debating. Salvation is so simple and I thank the Lord that He loved me enough that He made a way.

[Mandi]

I know you are looking for answers like so many, but I will not debate a relationship that I have with God...
God is not looking for perfect. If that was the case you wouldn't need salvation. Not one is perfect..the difference is those who have received salvation knew they needed God because of our imperfections.
By the way: the "loving father" did a lot for us. He gave His only Son to die on the cross for you, me and everyone else that wants to believe and receive it. Jesus suffered more than we can imagine, but because he loved us He did this for us.
Christians battle with their flesh (feelings and emotions) everyday...we are far from perfect but because we accepted the gift God has given us (his son Jesus) we were made perfect in His sight. And when we sin we ask for forgiveness and ask for His help especially in areas where we are weak.
Did you have a relationship with your husband or boyfriend? How did you do this? Of course it was by spending time to get to know him, and that is what we need to do to know God and have a relationship. We need to read His word and get to understand who He is and how He feels ...just like you would take the time for someone you love. And once you get to know the heart of God you will fall in love with Him. But it won't happen here debating. Salvation is so simple and I thank the Lord that He loved me enough that He made a way.

That's another thing I don't get... Why did he have to die? I'm not asking anyone to debate their beliefs. I guess I'm just really insecure in my own and in need of answers.

[rhiley_08j]

So there isn't just heaven or hell?

That can be a debatable situation as well, and when you start getting into it that is when religions begin to act the same towards each other as non-believers do towards them. But if you read the Bible, and you study various religions and you begin to take away from their underlying beliefs you happen to find the true answers. God had an original plan for mankind, and that has never changed, only man's desire to help God accomplish that plan.

[rhiley_08j]

That's another thing I don't get... Why did he have to die? I'm not asking anyone to debate their beliefs. I guess I'm just really insecure in my own and in need of answers.


Think of it like a scale, on one side we have a perfect man, Adam, who sinned, and in order to balance out that scale we needed another perfect man, Jesus, to regain what Adam had lost. It isn't so much the physical aspect of the act but rather the symbolism of it.

[cornerofeden]

Heaven Words used in Biblical times typically had broader ranges of meanings than today’s words. This is the case for the word heaven, the Hebrew word shamayim in the Old Testament and the Greek word ouranós in the New Testament. People in Biblical times used it for three fundamentally different meanings. The first heaven referred to the earth’s atmosphere, containing the birds and the clouds. It was the visible daytime sky. The second heaven referred to the visible universe, containing the stars of the night sky. The third heaven referred to the realm of heavenly spirits, not normally visible to mortals. In the broadest sense the third heaven includes both the Modern English word heaven (the realm of God) as well as paradise (the realm of disembodied spirits). In each of the following verses, the Hebrew word shamayim or the Greek word ouranós is used. In other words, the original writers actually used their word for heaven in each of these statements:
1^st Heaven
The way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a snake on a rock, the way of a ship on the high seas, and the way of a man with a maiden. (Prov 30:19)
Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches. (Matt 13:32)
Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time? (Luke 12:56)
2^nd Heaven
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Gen 1:1)
The stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. (Mark 13:25)
And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. (Heb 11:12)
3^rd Heaven
O LORD, God of our fathers, are you not the God who is in heaven? (2 Chron 20:6)
This, then, is how you should pray: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name… " (Matt 6:9)
In the following case Paul specifies that he is using the third meaning of the word heaven in his text. Note that in this case he is even more specifically referring to paradise, or the spirit world, in this statement:
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know - God knows. And I know that this man - whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows - was caught up to paradise. (2 Cor 12:2-4)
In the ultimate sense of the word, heaven is the abode of God. To be in heaven is to be with God continually and eternally. (1 Thes. 4:17; 5:10) Any other situation is not heaven.
Hell
Hell (Greek géenna) is the final permanent destiny of those who stand before the Great White Throne on Judgment Day to be judged according to their works. (Rev. 20:11-14) Inhabiting hell is the result of persistence in rejecting God.
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt 10:28)
You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? (Matt 23:33)
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. (Mark 9:43)
Hell is the opposite of heaven. To be in hell is to be outside of heaven forever. Thus, any permanent irrevocable situation outside of heaven is hell. The apostle John saw a frightening vision of hell in the book of Revelation:
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15)
Using the term "lake of fire" to describe hell provides an image of a terrible place of unending agony. People are not actually burned physically in hell, but John was painting a word picture of a place in which the pain and torment are perhaps beyond mortal comprehension. In his book, Mere Christianity, C. S. Lewis indicates that hell is awful simply because it is outside of the presence of God. It is an environment of realization that coexistence with other demons is the only future that its occupants will ever have. Lewis suggests that everyone is always changing, some towards good, others towards evil. Some of the people who reject God may not seem evil today, but without the transforming influence of God and left to their own selfish devices, they slowly and inevitably descend towards demonism. Most of the people who inhabit hell will not have been drunkards and prostitutes in mortal life, but respectable people (including religious people like the Pharisees that Jesus was addressing in chapter 23 of Matthew quoted above) who refused to open their hearts to the Truth. So God did not create the horrible agony of hell. To the contrary it will be created by misuse of free will in the absence of God.

[cornerofeden]

Why did Jesus have to die? Remember, the holy God cannot let sin go unpunished. To bear our own sins would be to suffer God’s judgment in the flames of hell. Praise God, He kept His promise to send and sacrifice the perfect Lamb to bear the sins of those who trust in Him. Jesus had to die because He is the only one who can pay the penalty for our sins.

[Mandi]

Why did Jesus have to die? Remember, the holy God cannot let sin go unpunished. To bear our own sins would be to suffer God’s judgment in the flames of hell. Praise God, He kept His promise to send and sacrifice the perfect Lamb to bear the sins of those who trust in Him. Jesus had to die because He is the only one who can pay the penalty for our sins.

That to me just seems immature. 'Can't find the guilty, but someone has to go to jail'. I just don't think there is a way to explain it so that I would find it acceptable. But that's just my own personal beliefs. I think it's foolish.

[omyindeed]

That to me just seems immature. 'Can't find the guilty, but someone has to go to jail'. I just don't think there is a way to explain it so that I would find it acceptable. But that's just my own personal beliefs. I think it's foolish.


I am not sure why this would be considered foolish. Isn't this what we as humans have been known to do for others ,even people we don't know?
I believe there was a man in N.Y who took a seizure and fell on the subway tracks and a man he didnt know jumped on him to hold him down while the train passed over both. That stranger saved that man at risk of his own life.
How many people donate body parts to save another at risk to themselves
If a child was standing in the path of a car would you not risk your life to save that child? etc etc
Jesus died on the cross to save us from the penalty of our own sins.
I call it giving ,not foolish.... just my op

[Mandi]

I am not sure why this would be considered foolish. Isn't this what we as humans have been known to do for others ,even people we don't know?
I believe there was a man in N.Y who took a seizure and fell on the subway tracks and a man he didnt know jumped on him to hold him down while the train passed over both. That stranger saved that man at risk of his own life.
How many people donate body parts to save another at risk to themselves
If a child was standing in the path of a car would you not risk your life to save that child? etc etc
Jesus died on the cross to save us from the penalty of our own sins.
I call it giving ,not foolish.... just my op

I think it's foolish that no sin goes unpunished, NOT that someone would be so giving.

[omyindeed]

The way I read it and I could be wrong because I would be the last person in the world that would be considered knowledgeable but I have read there is only one sin that is unpardonable:

LUKE 12:10, "And everyone that says a word against the Son of Man, that will be forgiven; But he that blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
MARK 3:29, "Whoever blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of everlasting sin." <o:p></o:p>
MATTHEW 12: 31-32 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come<o:p></o:p>

[lizard_lover]

Ok, so if man is sin, and everything we create was created in sin, what about religion? Religion is made by man, therefor religion is sin...

[Nail]

Man was given Free Will. Man chose to sin. It's not something we ARE, it's something we are born into doing and choose to do.

[wookiee]

Man was given Free Will. Man chose to sin. It's not something we ARE, it's something we are born into doing and choose to do.

I'm not a believer in Catholic , but I think your wrong about the sin part.
Yes we may chose Sin, but if I am correct we are born into Sin. That's why we have to get baptised when we are born. It states in the Catholic Religion that you are born into Sin and if your not baptised you will go to hell.....which is just so stupid anyways.

[Nail]

That's not just Catholic. Thats what the Bible says. Everyone is born into sin. The other things you have said about baptism are not quite right either...

[FutureChief88]

Wow.. I guess i am REALLY headed for hell!

Not baptised, Children out of wedlock.. and many other things.. I guess i was born into sin.. and never came out! lol

[Nail]

There are Saints in the Bible who've done worse.

[wookiee]

That's not just Catholic. Thats what the Bible says. Everyone is born into sin. The other things you have said about baptism are not quite right either...

It is right. If your not baptism when you are born, then your going to hell. Thats the Catholic Religion.

Its not hard to understand and you can ask any priest that question and they will tell you the same. Its true and stupied.

[Nail]

Well, I'm not Catholic, but i did find this:
Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).

[rhiley_08j]

We are all sinners, we are born as such, thanks to the path of our earthly father Adam. That is why Jesus sacrificed his life for us. The thing is there is a difference between sinning, and continually sinning, or living a life of sin. We are all imperfect, and we will all sin, but if we are remorseful of our sins and we strive to not continue to sin, than that is what makes us right in God's eyes.

[patbez]

It is right. If your not baptism when you are born, then your going to hell. Thats the Catholic Religion. .




Well, you can say that's the Catholic application - and even Catholics disagree on this point - it is not what the Bible teaches. As a follower of the Bible that's what I have ride on.

Baptism is a symbol, not part of the process of our rescue from spiritual death.

So I would agree then Wookiee, it is stupid, lol!

[patbez]

Wow.. I guess i am REALLY headed for hell!

Not baptised, Children out of wedlock.. and many other things.. I guess i was born into sin.. and never came out! lol


The sin thing you never really get out of - actually the closer you get to God the more you tend to notice how screwed up you are. I don't think you're messed up more than anyone else, lol!

[patbez]

Ok, so if man is sin, and everything we create was created in sin, what about religion? Religion is made by man, therefor religion is sin...

Humans aren't sin - the defination of human and sin are vastly different, just like equating humans with the flu, doesn't work. Also, I don't think anyone would agree that everything we create is in sin. How could my french fries or a house be in sin?

So the argument does not reach your conclusion, if I see it correctly.

[patbez]

That to me just seems immature. 'Can't find the guilty, but someone has to go to jail'. I just don't think there is a way to explain it so that I would find it acceptable. But that's just my own personal beliefs. I think it's foolish.


Really I think the guilty *was* found. Right - like humanity was, but the actual punishment was applied to God

Like that old story where the son was on trail for murder, the Judge was son's father, he found him guilty but then said "I'm going to act in his place and go to jail." The real story is better.

We punish children, old people, dogs - this is different because we're talking spiritual stuff and sin is considered more "infinite" and the punishment must match the deed in nature (infinite).

[heres2u]

That's another thing I don't get... Why did he have to die? I'm not asking anyone to debate their beliefs. I guess I'm just really insecure in my own and in need of answers.

If you read the OT you will see that the law for sin was shedding of blood. Many animals were sacrificed for sins. In the NT there became a new law. Jesus was born to become a living sacrifice to shed His blood for us because He loves us!! He was without sin so His blood was perfect. God loves everyone. That is why he sent his Son robed in his flesh (Jesus=God with us) to become the greatest sacrifice of all. His blood was shed so we now don't have to shed blood of animals but all we need is to ask God to forgive us of our sins and when we are baptized we are washed and covered in His blood. God loves us that much. That is why Jesus is the Lamb of lambs. To answer your question as to why He had to die. He didn't. He did it because He wanted to, because He loves us!!

There is always this debate about well if He loves us so much why would He let bad things happen to us and why does He send us to hell? I don't claim to know all the answers but I do have a relationship with God. I believe and you can take it just as that, that He loves us enough to let us go and make our own decisions. Sometimes we make bad decisions and there are consequences. Sometimes things happen to us that aren't our faults but its by another person who is at fault. God never gives us anything that we can't handle. I do believe that. We can decide to put our heads in the sand and let that person win or we can learn and grow and put the past behind and teach others and help out in our community. God does love everyone and there are things in the Bible that are sin. He loves people. He hates sin. I know that's not philosophical but it's really that simple. I love my children. I hate when they do things they know they aren't supposed to do. I want to protect my children from danger so I don't want them to do things or go places I know they will get harmed. If more people read the bible and followed it I don't think anyone could debate the fact the world would not be in the shape it is now. No it is not Satan directly. He didn't create the fruit on the tree in the garden but he did convince Eve to eat it.

Do I know where God came from? No. I will say it. I don't. I just know that only God could make things that are good and beautiful and perfect. Look at the animals how they know how to get food and shelter. Look at your children. I'm sorry but I refuse to believe that I evolved from a monkey. If evolution is true why are we not still evolving?? Science only proves what is in the bible in the first place. Scientists first believed the earth was flat yet in the bible it states about the world being round. They can show so much about evolution and nature but they can't explain the atom. How did that come to be?? Was that always here?? If you don't believe in God because you can't see Him or you don't know where He came from than you should really reconsider as the atom is just as a mystery but it's just as real.

[heres2u]

I just realized its Easter weekend. Very fitting. I hope everyone has a wonderful weekend!!

[rhiley_08j]

Do I know where God came from? No. I will say it. I don't. I just know that only God could make things that are good and beautiful and perfect. Look at the animals how they know how to get food and shelter. Look at your children. I'm sorry but I refuse to believe that I evolved from a monkey. If evolution is true why are we not still evolving?? Science only proves what is in the bible in the first place. Scientists first believed the earth was flat yet in the bible it states about the world being round. They can show so much about evolution and nature but they can't explain the atom. How did that come to be?? Was that always here?? If you don't believe in God because you can't see Him or you don't know where He came from than you should really reconsider as the atom is just as a mystery but it's just as real.


Very well said. The thing to remember though is that science does not always contradict what the bible says. In fact many scientist are very strong in their faith, and believe that through their research they can learn how the processes in which God created work.

The thing to remember about science is that it is always based on a hypothesis that is either proven as fact or accepted as fact by the scientific community. Look at for example, carbon dating. Carbon dating is accepted by most of the scientific community as an accurate way to date ancient artifacts. They compare things like the amount of deterioration or colorization as a way to measure how old something is. Their only means of comparison is to compare it to something else they have already dated. Does that mean that it is an accurate representation? They only means that the two objects may be similar in age. There is no way to actually determine that the object would be a million years old. It is just accepted as fact. Now if they were to take an object now, set it aside for future generations, than and only than, would future generations be able to get an accurate representation.

[mizunderstood]

My whole issue with the god/bible debate is this..... The "bible" as we know it now, is not what it was originally. It has been edited, changed, modified, etc through hundreds of years. The other thing that bothers me is that when jesus was "born" he was a mortal being, just like us. Not until later in the bible did he become immortal or devine. How many of you that are religious, spiritual etc truely know WHEN the bible was written? Who was in charge of the "writing". Who got the final say in what exactly the bible said inside the pages. I refuse to believe something that is supposed to be "the word of god" when it was written from the "hand of man"
Another thing that bothers me is that there are soooo many other "books" that were written long before the writing of the bible, but for one reason or another were not included in the bible as we know it today.... Some of the testaments in the bible were written 40 years or more after the "events" took place... How is that able to be historically proven accurate?
JMO.
One big pet peeve I have, kind of off topic here but I HATE when people come to the door bringing the "word of god". I do not wish to hear what you have to say, I have my own religious beliefs, please don't force your beliefs on me, I don't do it to you. NOW I know some are pretty nice about it, but I HATE when they push you around, forcing you to hear what they say. I actually had to tell 2 guys that I was calling the cops to have them removed from my property, before they would leave....I respect everyone's beliefs, and I pretty impressed how well this thread has gone...
Happy bunny day everyone!!

[rhiley_08j]

People that place so much emphasis on discrediting the Bible are missing the whole underlying principle of the Bible. We could sit here and argue whether or not the Bible is inspired by God. We could argue whether or not it is accurate, but in all honesty what does that solve? What is the underlying message in the Bible? What example did the story of Jesus set for us all? Whether you believe the Bible to be God's word or not, is menial. If every person spent more time applying it's principles and living their life by the golden rule, than God's work would be fulfilled.

As for people coming to my door, I am always open to listen, I might actually learn something I don't know. I feel that those people deserve some admiration. It may not be as prevalent here, but in countries in which they don't have the religious freedoms that we take for granted, many risk their lives in order to try to spread the good word. It's more than what most of us can say that we do for our faith, no matter where it may lie.

[patbez]

The "bible" as we know it now, is not what it was originally.

Ah yes it is - who told you this?


when jesus was "born" he was a mortal being, just like us. Not until later in the bible did he become immortal or devine.

This is incorrect also - those who believed he was the Christ assumed he was prior to the womb, as in forever ago.



How many of you that are religious, spiritual etc truely know WHEN the bible was written? Who was in charge of the "writing". Who got the final say in what exactly the bible said inside the pages. I refuse to believe something that is supposed to be "the word of god" when it was written from the "hand of man"

Most of the books are signed by authors or historically understood based on the style of greek. And if a book wouldn't convince people that God is interveining in the history of humanity, what would - what should one demand to see from God so they would believe what God says?



Another thing that bothers me is that there are soooo many other "books" that were written long before the writing of the bible, but for one reason or another were not included in the bible as we know it today.... Some of the testaments in the bible were written 40 years or more after the "events" took place... How is that able to be historically proven accurate?

It's because these books were not written by those who were believed to be inspired by God. The thoughts in the writting often conflicted with the collective belief of the period and often were not written by those who signed the documents. And if you are talking of the Gnostic Gospels, as people often do in this context, many were written almost 200 years after the life of Christ. Quite a length of time, though somehow they have become popular in our culture and assumed were taken out because of some grand conspiracy. 40 years on the other hand is not much at all - why would that be too long to produce a trustworthy story?



One big pet peeve I have, kind of off topic here but I HATE when people come to the door bringing the "word of god". I do not wish to hear what you have to say, I have my own religious beliefs, please don't force your beliefs on me, I don't do it to you.


What's your address, I promise I won't come knock on your door, lol!!

Interestingly though, and it's really a general comment on people, (and i say this as someone who doesn't *enjoy* people knocking on my door), if you have a belief that drives you with such passion that you want to tell others', well I don't critize them too much. I mean, if you think that this guy Mr. Bar-Joseph is saving/saved the world, then wouldn't you tell somebody?

My theory is that great ideas are polemic with the christian worldview being the true metanarritive (all others being fakes), and so becomes the most polemic. It's like nothing gets people on edge more than if you ask them their personal relgious beliefs. It's very personal - but doesn't this lend truth to the idea?

*my wife also uses this account!

[puppyluv]

A littel of the topic, but check out the video on this link.. It is amazing.
http://www.ignitermedia.com/products/iv/singles/4/Thats-My-King

[rhiley_08j]

A littel of the topic, but check out the video on this link.. It is amazing.
http://www.ignitermedia.com/products/iv/singles/4/Thats-My-King


Very nice puppyluv! Too bad not everyone feels the same way. If man truly knew him, than we would know peace!

[kaj27]

Ah yes it is - who told you this?




Proof?

You can't tell anyone a story without them adding or removing something. Imagine what happened over the years.

[KRS]

Why is it that people want proof of the Bible or Gods existence?
Religion and God are based on faith. You can't prove the existence of God; even with Science.

Everyone has to believe in something..

[rhiley_08j]

In my opinion, science helps to prove that God does exist. Man studies how everything works, and they discover the most minute detail that makes process work however they cannot mimic it. They discover the intense amount of structure that goes behind everything that we take for granted, however they cannot mimic it. At least not from nothing. Even cloning for example, cannot be copied without starting with a cell. All these things just go to prove how amazing and awe inspiring our creator is. No matter how hard mankind may try to eliminate God, it will never happen, because without him we wouldn't exist.

[baseball 23]

In my opinion, science helps to prove that God does exist. Man studies how everything works, and they discover the most minute detail that makes process work however they cannot mimic it. They discover the intense amount of structure that goes behind everything that we take for granted, however they cannot mimic it. At least not from nothing. Even cloning for example, cannot be copied without starting with a cell. All these things just go to prove how amazing and awe inspiring our creator is. No matter how hard mankind may try to eliminate God, it will never happen, because without him we wouldn't exist.

Or is that the other way around? Some would say God wouldn't exist without us.

[rhiley_08j]

Or is that the other way around? Some would say God wouldn't exist without us.


I suppose if you believe that God is a figament of people's imagination. For me though that is sort of hard to except, because no matter what your religious background, whether it be from the egyptians, the indians, or todays Christians, man has always believed in an ultimate being. Whether it be God or some other superior being, the idea has always existed, from the beginning of man.

[wookiee]

In my opinion, science helps to prove that God does exist. Man studies how everything works, and they discover the most minute detail that makes process work however they cannot mimic it. They discover the intense amount of structure that goes behind everything that we take for granted, however they cannot mimic it. At least not from nothing. Even cloning for example, cannot be copied without starting with a cell. All these things just go to prove how amazing and awe inspiring our creator is. No matter how hard mankind may try to eliminate God, it will never happen, because without him we wouldn't exist.

and so how does science prove that God exist? Cause if thats your answer above it makes no sense how that proves god exist.

[cornerofeden]

Matt. 7:6
A. As is often the case, there is another side regarding our
responsibilities as servants.
1. Sometimes Christians, in their eagerness to be kind and
compassionate, fail to recognize that God put limitations on
certain aspects of their discipleship.
2. It is not always good stewardship to expend the time and
energy to teach or to render assistance to those who
apparently are unworthy.
3. To aid or teach all people, regardless of whether they are
worthy or not, is not in keeping with the Lord's command.
4. We should not waste the things the Lord has entrusted to us.
B. We do not want the Lord's instructions in Matt. 7:6 to cause us
to excuse ourselves or to ignore our responsibilities

I am not calling anyone unworthy. I just think Christians try too hard to show others the way to salvation; which only opens to a whole lot of debates which in the Word of God tells us not to do. It just causes more confusion when not led by the Spirit.
I'm sure you would appreciate if your house was on fire, you would be thankful for someone telling you this. Rhiley is trying to tell you this for your sake. You can take it or leave it, it certainly is your choice.

[rhiley_08j]

and so how does science prove that God exist? Cause if thats your answer above it makes no sense how that proves god exist.


Science proves the fact that God exists by showing the complexities of the processes in the world, proving that things that operate under such structure could not happen by chance, but rather take a huge amount of planning. Structure is developed, not happened by chance.

[baseball 23]

I suppose if you believe that God is a figament of people's imagination. For me though that is sort of hard to except, because no matter what your religious background, whether it be from the egyptians, the indians, or todays Christians, man has always believed in an ultimate being. Whether it be God or some other superior being, the idea has always existed, from the beginning of man.

some people have always believed in ghosts, does that make them so? I'm not saying that is my personal belief but the belittlement of those who don't share your view is hardly Christian like. The right wing hypocrisy continues.

[rhiley_08j]

...but the belittlement of those who don't share your view is hardly Christian like.


I'm sorry, I don't see where this applies. Please elaborate.

[mizunderstood]

Check out my religion!
http://www.venganza.org/

sorry had to liten the mood here... Let's all just agree to disagree.... :)

[baseball 23]

I'm sorry, I don't see where this applies. Please elaborate.

I was referring to one of your earlier posts.

"Very nice puppyluv! Too bad not everyone feels the same way. If man truly knew him, than we would know peace!"

[KRS]

Take a look at any advanced chemistry book and have a look at the molecule tables. That should be enough to prove that there is a God

[FutureChief88]

I would assume religion.. and prophecies.. are all in what one believes. There is no need to puch these on others.. and belittle anyone. As Miz said.. Lets all just agree to disagree. I dont believe in ANY of this.. but that certainly doesnt make me a bad person.

[inuit]

More people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason in history. More people have been tortured in the name of God than any other reason in history. Is this the teachings of any bible or religion?

I believe the bible is a good base for decency and I believe humans need some kind of a guide for decency and lawfulness because of all animals ,humans are the most vile. I also believe the bible was written for the time it was written in. There is absolutely no way to adhere to what is written word for word because we do not live in that time frame. Ideas, people and times have changed so much it woul be near impossible. I can not disagree with the bible's view of slavery, women's issues, homosexuality, sacrifice and servitude because in the time the bible was written those things were accepted. This however is a whole different time and much of what is written in the bible can not and must not be applied now

I do believe in a greater being and many years of nursing I have seen miracles first hand an was granted a miracle several years back. Of that I am very thankful. Everyone has their own personal belief or lack thereof and I don't believe anything anyone says on this post will alter anyone's views. To each his own. I may not believe as you do but am no more wrong than you.

[rhiley_08j]

I was referring to one of your earlier posts.

"Very nice puppyluv! Too bad not everyone feels the same way. If man truly knew him, than we would know peace!"


I still don't see how that is belittling. Whether you believe in what the Bible says or not, if everyone was to follow the general principles of the Bible, mainly the ten commandments, and the principle of love, the world would be a peaceful place. It is a fact. Can you really argue with that? That if we all lived a life guided by love, the world would be a better place.

[FutureChief88]

Sure.. but i guess the conflict lies with .. who says "god" Made these rules.
thats where i am skeptical.

[rhiley_08j]

Sure.. but i guess the conflict lies with .. who says "god" Made these rules.
thats where i am skeptical.


Does it really matter? People put too much emphasis on where it came from, rather than what it says. Forget about trying to discredit anything but rather think about how it would be if everyone applied the underlying principles in their lives.

[mizunderstood]

Does it really matter? People put too much emphasis on where it came from, rather than what it says. Forget about trying to discredit anything but rather think about how it would be if everyone applied the underlying principles in their lives.

Yes it does matter where it came from. I know I sure as heck would want proof that these life rules came from a higher power, rather than some wacked out psycho path (Hilter comes to mind lol) If you want us to believe whole heartedly in somethign that no one can actually prove, document or whatever, that is where the issue is... How do we know that the bible wasn't written by some nazi, psycho-path, control freak who just wanted everyone to be forced to follow the rules of his dictatorship?
Once again, just my opinion, now its off to pray at the church of the flying speghetti monster!! lol... Come one seriously guys, this is a debate that will never end, no one will ever convince another person to convert to their beliefs, religion, cult, whatever... Let's all just agree to disagree.... HAPPY HUMP DAY!!! :)

[rhiley_08j]

Yes it does matter where it came from. I know I sure as heck would want proof that these life rules came from a higher power, rather than some wacked out psycho path (Hilter comes to mind lol) If you want us to believe whole heartedly in somethign that no one can actually prove, document or whatever, that is where the issue is... How do we know that the bible wasn't written by some nazi, psycho-path, control freak who just wanted everyone to be forced to follow the rules of his dictatorship?
Once again, just my opinion, now its off to pray at the church of the flying speghetti monster!! lol... Come one seriously guys, this is a debate that will never end, no one will ever convince another person to convert to their beliefs, religion, cult, whatever... Let's all just agree to disagree.... HAPPY HUMP DAY!!! :)


Do you really think that love and doing onto others as you would have them do onto you are from the mind of a nazi psychopath? As for proving it, the proof is in people's actions. There is no better proof than the application of the statement.

[mizunderstood]

Do you really think that love and doing onto others as you would have them do onto you are from the mind of a nazi psychopath? As for proving it, the proof is in people's actions. There is no better proof than the application of the statement.

I am sure love and do unto others is not something a nazi per say would write, however, what about the things in the bible that say to kill others? that does seem kind of odd for someone that is all loving, all powerful, perfect being to say don't you agree?

[rhiley_08j]

I am sure love and do unto others is not something a nazi per say would write, however, what about the things in the bible that say to kill others? that does seem kind of odd for someone that is all loving, all powerful, perfect being to say don't you agree?

Show me where it says that please. The Bible teaches love; to turn your swords into plow sheers; to turn the other cheek; to love your enemy.

[mizunderstood]

Show me where it says that please. The Bible teaches love; to turn your swords into plow sheers; to turn the other cheek; to love your enemy.

Lev. 20:13

[rhiley_08j]

Lev. 20:13


That is from the Old Testament and God's covenant with the Isrealites. When Jesus came, he came with a New Covenant.

[donteatrawpotatoes]

.

[FutureChief88]

Ugh..
O well the OLD testament..
Good thing god corrected himself.


Ugh..
As Miz said.. No one will change their minds.. religon is a powerful subject. Whatever gets you through the day.. and helps you with life is what i believe in. I do not believe in god.. but i do nice things for others. I do not act the way i do because of a "book"

[mizunderstood]

A-men! (pun intended) futurechef!! lol

[FutureChief88]

LOL

[inuit]

Were you aware that the majority of the globe's population is not christian. Every other belief is as certain of their faith as you areyours. Scary or what? Maybe just senseless. I don't know.

[inuit]

..

[inuit]

..

[rhiley_08j]

Were you aware that the majority of the globe's population is not christian. Every other belief is as certain of their faith as you areyours. Scary or what? Maybe just senseless. I don't know.


Or maybe that is the key? The fact that there are so many different views on there being a superior being and yet they all have one common belief, that there is something higher. Seems an awful strong coincidence to me.

[rhiley_08j]

Ugh..
O well the OLD testament..
Good thing god corrected himself.



It had nothing to do with God correcting himself... No disrespect intended Future, as I have enjoyed many a good debate with you, but so many people try to discredit the Bible when they have no understanding of it. They hear from others, and maybe read a scripture or two in an effort to try to prove it wrong, proving that they don't truly know what it says.

The Bible is one of the oldest history books known to mankind. When people make comments about things like it was written after the fact and use that as a way to discredit it, they seem to forget that it was meant to be a historical rendition of what led the Isreallites to loose their path as God's chosen people, and to provide insight to those of future generations how they could become God's chosen people.

Like I said before, whether a person believes it to be accurate or not, or whether or not it is inspired of God, or the fact that is the basis for the Christian religion is not what is the most important thing. The thing is that the underlying principles in it's pages cannot lead you wrong in any way. IF it is leading a person wrong, than they must not be reading it for what it's worth.

[inuit]

Is this a discussion about the validity of the bible or if there is a God? The two are not the same. Most everyone and every belief on earth believes in God or Gods but not everyone believes in the bible as it is written in christianity. Most of the world"s population do not. Just to note many of these religions are much older than christianity. Must be just as valid don't you think?

[mizunderstood]

The thing is that the underlying principles in it's pages cannot lead you wrong in any way. IF it is leading a person wrong, than they must not be reading it for what it's worth.

So you agree with Lev 20:13 then?You don't think that this passage is leading a person in the wrong direction?? I believe that passage is very wrong, and does lead people to carry out horrible actions.... That is just ONE example of hundreds...

[patbez]

Proof?

You can't tell anyone a story without them adding or removing something. Imagine what happened over the years.


The statment I replied to assumed the Bible after it was complied (or even in it's segmented books) contains different or altered text significantly different to wht we retrain today. This is incorrect.

Now what you say I agree with but is another subject. You are assuming the authors deleted, added or forgot information from what they first heard. Maybe. Though I'm not sure why one would assume this or how it would change the message.

[inuit]

I must agree with miz. I've read the bible cover to cover.; Some books are nice but for the most part it is one scary read. Slavery, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, polyigomy, torture,vengence, mistreatment and ownership of women like cattle and the book or revelation. What is that about? Scary, scary read. As a matter of fact I would not allow my children to read it till they were old enough to unerstand it was written for a whole different time. I no longer own a bible. The last one I read was the King James version and that was many years ago. I am a devout believer in God. I will not be made believe God has a gender so I do not say Him or He.

[inuit]

Of course the text of the english version is different. It has been translated many many times. Some of the words in the origional language have no english counterpart so some other word was used instead. Example.. in the inuit language there are over 150 words for snow while in english there may be what 8. No translation is possible. The english words do not exist.

[patbez]

Ugh..
O well the OLD testament..
Good thing god corrected himself.


It's easy to take one verse to prove your stance of course - even Christians know that since so many do it, haha!

The verse neither tells us to kill people or suggests God had a changed nature. This was a rule to the Jews under a theocracy, as God was creating a nation that reflected His ideals and presence. The NT has differnt teaching because we arn't under a theocracy but that has nothing to do with God changing His mind.

[mizunderstood]

[quote=FutureChief88;224052]Ugh..
O well the OLD testament..
Good thing god corrected himself.
QUOTE]

It's easy to take one verse to prove your stance of course - even Christians know that since so many do it, haha!

The verse neither tells us to kill people or suggests God had a changed nature. This was a rule to the Jews under a theocracy, as God was creating a nation that reflected His ideals and presence. The NT has differnt teaching because we arn't under a theocracy but that has nothing to do with God changing His mind.

WHAT do you mean it doesn't tell us to kill people??? What part of it doesn't sound like you are being given the "permission and responsibility" to kill???? Maybe we are reading 2 different bibles... Oh wait here is a good site.... http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh3.htm
I see no where that it DOESN't say to kill, or that they should be killed!!

I *believe* that in sunday school years ago we were taught no matter how awful the deed we did, no matter what, god would forgive us, and take us back in his arms... YET according to this one particular passage, it is basically saying there is no forgiveness, and they MUST be put to death.... It is not just one verse that "proves my stance" the whole bible is a contradiction in itself...How can you put your faith, life and eternal future in something that is so contradictory?

[patbez]

I must agree with miz. I've read the bible cover to cover.; Some books are nice but for the most part it is one scary read. Slavery, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, polyigomy, torture,vengence, mistreatment and ownership of women like cattle and the book or revelation. What is that about? Scary, scary read. As a matter of fact I would not allow my children to read it till they were old enough to unerstand it was written for a whole different time. I no longer own a bible. The last one I read was the King James version and that was many years ago. I am a devout believer in God. I will not be made believe God has a gender so I do not say Him or He.


If you read the Bible "cover to cover" (which is the worst or most boring way to read it) you should realize that these acts of terror you reference are historical occurences in most cases and not commands for humanity.

Also you have to step back and look at the metanarritive, the over-arching story God is telling us through this book: we are messed up and He breaks into history to rescue us.

Yeah, if you ever read it again, skip the KJV, haha!

[patbez]

I've read the bible cover to cover.; Some books are nice but for the most part it is one scary read. Slavery, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, polyigomy, torture,vengence, mistreatment and ownership of women like cattle and the book or revelation...The last one I read was the King James version....

If you've read it cover to cover (which is the worst and most boring way!) then you should understand these acts of terror you reference are historical occurences and not commands.

And the metanarritive, the over arching story here, is that we are messed up and God is acting in history to rescue us.


Of course the text of the english version is different. It has been translated many many times. Some of the words in the origional language have no english counterpart so some other word was used instead. Example.. in the inuit language there are over 150 words for snow while in english there may be what 8. No translation is possible. The english words do not exist.

There are many versions of the Bible but it hasn't been translated many many times. Pick up a Bible and read it - it has been translated once from the most accurate documents available to date. And so what if some words don't have an exact analogous meaning in a different language? I bet this doesn't stop you from reading other books. The only real differnece you will find is with idioms - are you considering because there isn't an exact word match the translaters threw in random words? Read the greek, it's close enough.

[inuit]

It definately was not boring. I loved the book of Ruth. Thought it was the best one. And Patbez, what are you talking about? Did we read different books? You are talking about the bible aren't you. I've also read the Book of Morman and the old testiment. I reiterate One scary read. If you are going to say it is the word of God then you can't turn around and say that's not what it means. Taken literately it is frightning. There is no other way to take it. Those who interpret it to mean what they want it to are not following the word of God are they? They are using the bible as a tool to condone what they do and point to the bible to justify it.

[patbez]

WHAT do you mean it doesn't tell us to kill people???

Again, I would suggest reading the entire passage and take note of verse 1. Also, I'm sure not many would be upset with God for the punishment in v2? Seems to me it's simply a question of wht you think people should be punished for and what should be excused, just like many have difficulties with capital punishment unless it's for the right crime.



[
...no matter how awful the deed we did, no matter what, god would forgive us, and take us back in his arms... YET according to this one particular passage, it is basically saying there is no forgiveness, and they MUST be put to death.... It is not just one verse that "proves my stance" the whole bible is a contradiction in itself...

In that one first sentance you are branching together two differnet systems of theology that spanded over 1000 years (i don't really know how many, but more than that anyhow). We are forgiven for anything if we put our trust in the life and death Jesus acted out for us. Jesus wasn't around during this verse you mention, but God's grace is still clearly evident throughout the OT.

And what is your stance - that the Bible is a contradiction? I don't see it.

[inuit]

Greek was not the origional language the bible was written in. Wasn't it Aramic. I don't read Greek.

[patbez]

It definately was not boring. I loved the book of Ruth. Thought it was the best one. And Patbez, what are you talking about? Did we read different books? You are talking about the bible aren't you. I've also read the Book of Morman and the old testiment. I reiterate One scary read.

OK it's not boring and fine it's scary as hell. So what - when did you read it, when you were five? It's scary because it's recording the brutal nature of humanity - you watch the news right? Anyway there's no parental guidence label on it, but I wouldn't read it cover to cover to my kids either, it would make their heads spin. I also wouldn't read the Iliad to them.



If you are going to say it is the word of God then you can't turn around and say that's not what it means. Taken literately it is frightning. There is no other way to take it. Those who interpret it to mean what they want it to are not following the word of God are they? They are using the bible as a tool to condone what they do and point to the bible to justify it.

?? I must have missed my conversation since I don't remember saying it's the word of God and what's written isn't what it means. You are going to have to tell me what I am interpreting to suit my fanciful thoughts. But i completly agree with you premise and conclusion at the end Inuit, I just don't see how I did this.

[inuit]

I wasn't suggesting that translators threw in random words to replace words that there was no english equivalent. If no word existed what happened? They did not just leave the word out something else was used instead. I can use one word to describe snow that would take 3 sentences to describe in english and still would be left lacking for what I was trying to say. . In inuit, you will hear many many english words mixed with inuit for lack of words. I'm just pointing out how things get lost in translation.

[patbez]

Greek was not the origional language the bible was written in. Wasn't it Aramic. I don't read Greek.

Yeah good point, I was just being lazy and summarizing. OT was written in Hebrew and Aramaic, and some say Chaldean which I understand to be a mid east culture during a period but I think this may be just similar enough to Aramaic, but I don't know. The NT was Greek.

[patbez]

If no word existed what happened? They did not just leave the word out something else was used instead...In inuit, you will hear many many english words mixed with inuit for lack of words. I'm just pointing out how things get lost in translation.

Right, there is something lost in the translation - but how significant is this for each sentence and then for how large a portion of the text in the bible? I would think quite low. Today we have access to very ancient manuscripts and the translations are extremely accurate, to about 99%.

Just as you hear many english words mixed into the inuit language, perhaps this is the same - an amalgmation of cultures through text.

My point is if you think this is a possiblity, that the text is not accurate, it becomes overwhelming. I would ask you to consider what text would hinge your opinion on whether to trust the accuracy of the Bible? If it's just one then it's easy enough to search the first language of the wording.

[inuit]

No Pat I was 35 and not frightened like watching a scary movie but frightened as in people read this and try to interpret it to something they can live by and embrace. I do not agree with it being a history book. We have history books about that time in history that are far more accurate and unbiased. What is really scary is how many people go into battle waving this book like some banner to defend their brutality, intolerence and patriachal nonsense. For centries this book has been used to torture, abuse and kill anyone whose beliefs are different from theirs. Even today the bible is used to try to sway opions to their way of thinking.I grew up having the bible shoved down my throat to the point of gagging yet when I asked questions nobody wanted to answer.

[Nita]

So one bad apple spoils the barrel, inuit? Obviously it's more than one, but you get my drift.

I just wanted to jump in because I hate when people use the actions of PEOPLE to sum up a group, organization or religion. There are extremists in every group...but it comes down to a single person making a decision. Torture, murder etc. might be done in the name of religion in the person's eyes, but it's a willful action & one that they, & they alone, must take responsibility for. We don't condemn Germans nowadays based on their ancestors actions. The phrase "if so & so jumped off a bridge, would you?" is used so often...because it makes sense. You have to make decisions for yourself & take responsibility for them, no matter who or what is telling you otherwise. So if people chose to fight wars in the name of religion...that was their choice...I'm sure there were Christians that stood back & didn't think it was such a good idea, much like in modern wars.

& btw, are wars fought over oil or land more noble or something?

People have killed just to kill. People have killed because of love, greed, revenge. But somehow for religion always sticks out as worse, or something. & let's not forget that it's not just Christianity that has blood on it's hands...no religion is innocent.

I'm not a Christian, but I know many. I know many that are just vile people. When it comes to their judgements, their attitude about anyone that doesn't believe what they do...but that attitude is not BECAUSE they are Christian. It's because they are vile. I have met many a person that believes in something deeply, & will put someone down if they have the opposite belief. It could be in something as simple as what the real premise of the show Lost is. This simply makes them rude & cranky & is not BECAUSE they are a Lost fan...as if being one simply makes you one way or another.

& I have met many great Christians, willing & open for debate. Kind hearted, that wouldn't hurt a fly & actually LIKE meeting people from other religions & all walks of life. That's not because they are Christians, that's just because it's who they are...how they were raised. They're good people, belief in God or not.

"I grew up having the bible shoved down my throat to the point of gagging yet when I asked questions nobody wanted to answer."

Maybe that has deeply effected your view of Christians & Christianity. But like I started off saying, you really shouldn't judge a group of people based on your experiences. I'm not saying you CAN'T, because I know in this life that's precisely HOW we judge things...what we know & have experienced for ourselves. But I'm just saying, for every nasty Christian I've met, I've also met a wonderful Christian...just like for every jerk I've met in life, I've met a kind person. I'm not going to judge humanity as a whole simply by the jerky ones :)

[inuit]

Like you I too have met some utterly fantastic christians who were a credit to humanity as well as christianity. God bless them. They make the world a better place just because they are in it

I really wasn't christian bashing. I was bible bashing. Earlier a few pages back someone said and someone else agreed that the bible is the written word of God and is therefore true and unaltered. I really believe that is untrue. It is a very violent cruel book. If we are meant to live by it that's a scary thought.

Christianity is still a relatively young religion compared to many others yet christianity hold itself up as the only true religion. Christianity itself cannot decide which branch is the right one with hundreds of churches using the bible to interpret their own beliefs. If the bible was the word of God there should be no dessention in the ranks and would not be open to interpretation.

Everybody thinks their religion is the chosen one.I have a firm belief in God, not so in churches or religion.

[FutureChief88]

It had nothing to do with God correcting himself... No disrespect intended Future, as I have enjoyed many a good debate with you, but so many people try to discredit the Bible when they have no understanding of it. They hear from others, and maybe read a scripture or two in an effort to try to prove it wrong, proving that they don't truly know what it says.

The Bible is one of the oldest history books known to mankind. When people make comments about things like it was written after the fact and use that as a way to discredit it, they seem to forget that it was meant to be a historical rendition of what led the Isreallites to loose their path as God's chosen people, and to provide insight to those of future generations how they could become God's chosen people.

Like I said before, whether a person believes it to be accurate or not, or whether or not it is inspired of God, or the fact that is the basis for the Christian religion is not what is the most important thing. The thing is that the underlying principles in it's pages cannot lead you wrong in any way. IF it is leading a person wrong, than they must not be reading it for what it's worth.


And you are absolutely right. I will be the FIRST to admit that i have never read the bible.. and have no intrest in reading it. I just find it hard to read and believe in something that surely has been altered over years. Whether it was a rendition of events or written by "God" himself makes no difference really. I believe that i am a good person regardless of my beliefs or how much of the bible i have read. Everyone in life has their flaws.. and again i believe that "god" is what makes people do good things. I dont believe he is a person who sits atop this great "mountain" (if you will) who shakes his head at all we as a human race does wrong. If there wasnt bad.. people wouldnt appreciate the good..

Its not that i am trying to discredit the bible.. as i said before.. I really know nothing about it, i am just merely stating my beliefs on a few peices of paper.

As miz said earlier about the nazi thing. I dont belueve it was WRITTEN by a nazi.. b ut how do you know that it wasnt altered by one.
I just fid the concept of re-creating the "days of the lord" is a very far fatched concept. And THIS is my belief. EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion.. and i dont think less of anyone who has and voices theirs.. especially when it comes to religion. Its just bothers me when people who "believe" in the bible try to correct my beliefs. (which i am not saying you are doing rhiley) because i am in no way coaxing other to believe what i believe.. just stating my feelings about the subject.

[patbez]

It is a very violent cruel book. If we are meant to live by it that's a scary thought.

I do not agree with it being a history book.

As I stated earlier the Bible *contains* history. I didn't say it was intended as a history book. Though it does contain history books anyhow.


Christianity is still a relatively young religion compared to many others yet christianity hold itself up as the only true religion. Christianity itself cannot decide which branch is the right one with hundreds of churches using the bible to interpret their own beliefs. If the bible was the word of God there should be no dessention in the ranks and would not be open to interpretation.

Christianity is new but it is an extension of judism, and you have to consider that also. And there is no "right" branch whatever that means. Each local or foreign church must tie into the culture and personalities of people who attend. When the Nt was written there were different "branches" of christanity. There arn't different Bibles however (well except fo JW, haha!). With this line of though you would disbelieve in the constitution because it has been interpreted over the years to fit with society - but the nature of the document never changed did it?


I have a firm belief in God, not so in churches or religion.

So how did you come to this belief in God and what comprises this belief - if you don't mind my intrusion?




What is really scary is how many people go into battle waving this book like some banner to defend their brutality, intolerence and patriachal nonsense. For centries this book has been used to torture, abuse and kill anyone whose beliefs are different from theirs.

Who is going into battle with the Bible? And what difference does that make? If I went into battle using a horse are you going to condemn horses? To judge teaching look at the teaching, and not soley on the actions of a *few* nuts.

[KRS]

edit

[patbez]

And you are absolutely right. I will be the FIRST to admit that i have never read the bible

Hey, refershing honesty - nice.



I believe that i am a good person regardless of my beliefs or how much of the bible i have read. Everyone in life has their flaws.. and again i believe that "god" is what makes people do good things...

I agree with you FutureChief88 - the bible doesn't make you good nor the ideals you believe in. You will here people claiming we need the 10 commandments back in the courts but we have had many great teachers throughout history - ie Gandhi. How many more people do we really need telling us how to be good? How will that help - are people any better now? Not really. Jesus wasn't around to tell people how to be better people - he actually proved how terrible our hearts really our, that was part of his message.



As miz said earlier about the nazi thing. I dont believe it was WRITTEN by a nazi...but how do you know that it wasn't altered by one.

Well that's a great claim of course, so the burden is on you:)


Its just bothers me when people who "believe" in the bible try to correct my beliefs. (which i am not saying you are doing rhiley) because i am in no way coaxing other to believe what i believe.. just stating my feelings about the subject.

When person A believes in the teachigns of the Bible and someone says the Bible is faulty in some way, then you should expect person A to correct those notions. When you state your "feelings" on why you think the bible is incorrect or inaccurate you are suggesting that other's should hear your opinion and agree with it.

[Nail]

Everyone think that there are no critics within the Guild of Bible translators? They translate the SAME scripts! With more intelligent criticisms than anyone on ISaintJohn can offer. But why would we trust people who spend their lives studying the languages of scripture and devoting time to these translations?

[patbez]

Everyone think that there are no critics within the Guild of Bible translators? They translate the SAME scripts! With more intelligent criticisms than anyone on ISaintJohn can offer. But why would we trust people who spend their lives studying the languages of scripture and devoting time to these translations?

Why should we trust people to do their jobs? Wow, a bit cynical aren’t you? I suppose if it were simply a small elite group you could be distrustful, but please, this comes down to thousands of conventional scholars who don't *all* have biases.

And please offer up to us your "intelligent criticism," if we all lack some insight as you suggest.

[patbez]

That was a short and sweet sentence KRS- why edit?

[rhiley_08j]

Why should we trust people to do their jobs? Wow, a bit cynical aren’t you? I suppose if it were simply a small elite group you could be distrustful, but please, this comes down to thousands of conventional scholars who don't *all* have biases.

And please offer up to us your "intelligent criticism," if we all lack some insight as you suggest.


Just my opinion but I think Nail was being sarcastic.;)

[rhiley_08j]

There arn't different Bibles however (well except fo JW, haha!).


What do you mean and what is the JW?

[rhiley_08j]

Just a bit of info, the Bible was originally written in Hebrew for the most part and then the Christian Greek Scriptures, were written in "greek". Which was the language of that time period.

[patbez]

What do you mean and what is the JW?

Jehoviah's Witnesses, their belief structure uses a different translation of the Bible than what Christians would consider "standard."

So rhiley_08j, considering you began this thread on prophecy, what are your thoughts on some of the high points Christians reference within prophecy talk. For example, Paul preaching in Thessonlonica said Jesus would return any minute. People say every nation must hear the gospel before He returns, however on Pentecost every nation was present. Perhaps everything that needed to be fulfilled occured prior to 70 ad, as suggested in matt 24:34. So could He return any minute?

Also we hear prophecies of Jews needing to set up another temple, etc, but when Ezekial and Zephania wrote they were expecting a return of Jews (from captivity), *and* there was a nation state of Isreal until the destruction in 70 ad by Romans). So one could say this prophecy already occured?

[inuit]

When I said going into battle I was not refering to hand to hand combat. I was talking about christianity waving the bible to justify whatever they wanted to do and if you did not conform to their belief system, it was beaten into you.

It was not just a handful of radicals or terrorists as you claim it was the fundimental belief of christianity upheld by governments of the day . Even today you will hear a protestor quote the bible to try to force their point of view. Even old GW Bush has been known to throw the lords name into his rants about the middle east. All in the name of christanity. My my.

I use the name inuit because I am. Unless you have lived in a bubble you know what christianity did for my people. Totally distroyed our culture, language, our familys and our heirtage. Residential schools took not only our language and culture but our belief system. We were no longer allowed to speak in our native tongue and no longer allowed to believie in our spirit guides. To be caught doing either was a good strapping and other punishment until we heathens accepted jesus christ as our lord and saviour and relinquish our evil eskimo ways. Children were taken away from home in Sept. and returned home in June. Even children as young as 6 and forced to learn white ways. This of course sanctioned by our government just as the crusades in middevil times were sanctioned by governments of the day. It was not just northern natives who suffered this but all natives all over the world had to be converted to christianity. All in the name of christ. My my

Patbez, you asked about my belief in God. I think every religion and culture believe in God or gods.At the age of 12 everyone knows right from wrong, good from bad. Choosing to do it is another thing but we all know it. I believe God is in our hearts and we are born with God in us. All of us are good but can choose to do bad things. I absolutely do not believe in original sin. As in the bible if Adam ate the forbidden fruit it would be pretty petty to condem mankind for all time for it. Until I sin I am an innocent (already sinned)

So you see where I'm coming from and I for one do not believe the bible is the word of God and I've had it flapped in my face way too often.

[Nita]

inuit: I am of native american heritage, yet look at what happened as acts of people, not as acts of Christianity or acts provoked by the bible. Those are still PEOPLE waving the bible to justify doing whatever they wanted to do...that's not the bible's fault, nor Christianity's as a whole.

Every culture screws some culture over. Every culture has blood on it's hands. That's part of our history. It sucks, but it's the reality.

[inuit]

Yes, acts of people following the teachings of the bible because it is the word of God, don't you know. The realy disgusting thing is still missionaries out there preching the bible to those third world heathens as we speak because according to christiandom the bible is the only truth in the world.

I don't know how long ago your culture was subverted, maybe not in your lifetime but mine was during my lifetime. I still recall getting smacked in the side of the head for being caught taking a rabbit out of a snare and giving thanks to the great one for the rabbit. Being smacked, called a heathen and forced to write passages from the bible till my hands hurt. Being caught speaking my native tongue brought the same punishment.
At the age of 6 I might add.

Sorry I don't believe every culture screws over another culture. If that were true there'd be only one culture left. There are many many cultures out there. With government sanctions your peoples and my peoples and any other native culture were wiped out.

I don't even have so much problem with being wiped out in the name of greed at least that was a real reason and you could understand that. It makes sense, you have something I want so I'll take it. Perfect sense still wrong but there is reason. But to be eraticated in the name of christ just because they have a mandate to spread the word is not so forgivable.

I'm glad you can forgive so easily. I'm not so quick to turn my back on my culture.

[KRS]

I have been trying really hard to stay out of this topic because when it comes to religion I try and keep it to myself. I think the main reason people discredit the Bible is because they read to much into it or are not picking up on what the book truly is.

It is a book of metaphors, almost every circumstance you will be in, tough or easy is mentioned in the Bible. It is a guideline on how to give and receive love. Some of the stories are far-fetched. Myself, I don't look at the story of Adam and Eve and think they were the first people on the Earth. It is how you read the passage(s) and interpret them.

Everyone deserves the right to believe what they want. I don't force my opinions on anyone. My mom is Irish, she is a hardcore Roman Catholic, she prays for 2hours+ a day. Me, I rarely pray. But when I do I make it count. I don't even have a word to really describe what my beliefs are. I am not sure if I am Christian, maybe there are other religions out there to better suit me. All I know is that I believe, there is a higher power, this just didn't happen.

[KRS]

Cultures have been screwed over and wiped out in the name of greed and religion since the dawn of civilization. It still happens and it is sad, but this is the world we live in. Be thankful you live in a free country, although you are still a slave to the mighty dollar. You can wear, say, believe and do whatever you want. And if you have the money, you can probably get away with murder -- more than once.

[patbez]

.....

[Nita]

I'm not so quick to turn my back on my culture.

Wow, thanks for your judgement inuit. Funny how you basically like to talk about Christians or Christianity passing judgement or doing things to others...my, my. I think I smell a bit of hypocrisy. Play nice & don't make subversive personal insults. I'm not so quick to live my life with hate & anger in my heart. You don't want people to judge your beliefs or how you choose to live your life, right? So please don't judge my beliefs or how I feel about my culture.

You can have your pity party for one all you want. Crappy things happen to people all the time. Most people will or have faced injustice in their life. But place blame where blame belongs. If you think it's on Christians or Christianity, fine...to be honest, I could care less. But don't expect that because bad things happened to you & you're willing to share that, people will feel sympathetic & agree with what you're saying. If you're just wanting to be heard, fine. But Christian groups have done lots of good things for lots of people. It all comes down to personal experience, & yours obviously sucked...but that's not the case for everyone. But that's neither here nor there, to be honest. You look at what was done to you as being done by Christians, because of Christianity & the bible...I look at is as being done because people can be cruel, uneducated & stupid. What if it was in the name of the Koran, or any other religious book? Not all of these books can speak the truth...maybe none of them do. People are JUST people...they make their own decisions, they pay [hopefully] for their own decisions. I personally just don't understand how you basically blame Christianity or the bible but don't hold each individual accountable?

Sorry I don't believe every culture screws over another culture.

Just because YOU don't believe something or in something, doesn't mean it's not true.


KRS: Very nice & very valid points.

[inuit]

Nita. in the statement "I' m not so quick to turn my back on my culture", I really don't recall the word YOU being there. If you took that sentence to be aimed at you, that's on you not me. In the next quote you highlight, I believe I have a right to believe whatever I want right or wrong that's what I believe.

I'm not looking for sympathy from anybody merley stating a fact. Why would I expect anyone to feel sympathy for a truth? Maybe telling someone something that they were not aware of and maybe on the off chance to prevent it from happening again.

Funny if I was talking about molestation or rape you would not be saying Oh that was a long time ago forgive because it was a few bad people and move on. I guess because it was the church then it's o.k. Yes I have moved on but forgive No. I don't live my life in anger either I am aware what is past cannot be changed, but that doesn't mean I'm going to roll over and forget about it. I'm not stupid nor am I ignorant.

Other than christians I don't see too many other religions going around the globe trying to convert everyone. Never been approched by a Muslim, Hindu or Buddist trying to wipe my faith off the face of the earth. Why do you suppose that is?

I firmly believe too whatever you choose to believe is nobody's buisness but your own. You are no more right or wrong than I for what you believe in.

Just to qualify what I think about chrisianity, Aa few handfuls of "bad" people did not all wake up one day and decide to dedicate their lives to converting heathens to christianity. Must have been something in their religious teachings.

[KRS]

All of those religions convert. They do not only spread their teachings..they bring food, money and most importantly education.

[inuit]

I'd like to hear some comments from other religions. I'm not very well familiar with other religions like Muslim, Buddist Hindu ect.. You may be right KRS but I personally have never been approched by anyone but christians.

[KRS]

Live in Toronto for a couple years and you will brush up against all three of them!

[patbez]

When I said going into battle I was not refering to hand to hand combat. I was talking about christianity waving the bible to justify whatever they wanted to do and if you did not conform to their belief system, it was beaten into you.


No of course I didn't think that, but it would be fun to see. I just don't see this being taught in the Bible. I know people do it, but sorry, some people are messed up.


It was not just a handful of radicals or terrorists as you claim it was the fundimental belief of christianity upheld by governments of the day . Even today you will hear a protestor quote the bible to try to force their point of view. Even old GW Bush has been known to throw the lords name into his rants about the middle east. All in the name of christanity. My my.

So what's your point, that people use powerful ideas to support their own personal agendas. As I said earlier if you are going to discredit anything, discredit the teachings. Waste of time to argue with me that some people use the bible to do evil things, I already know this and agree with it. God should have added a clause at the end or a warning I guess - "please don't use this GW," haha!



I use the name inuit because I am. Unless you have lived in a bubble you know what christianity did for my people. Totally distroyed our culture, language, our familys and our heirtage. Residential schools took not only our language and culture but our belief system.

You know, it is possable for me to have lived in a bubble - then I woulde be hurt! But really, I agree with you, of course I'm sure it's easy to gloss over an evils or atrocities your culture committed. Maybe I should still be pissed off at Rome because they killed off many of the early Christians. Or Catholics for that protestant thing. Etc. I get what you are saying - did these things happen to you personally? I'm not discrediting the actions either way, but I think it makes a difference.



I think every religion and culture believe in God or gods.At the age of 12 everyone knows right from wrong, good from bad. Choosing to do it is another thing but we all know it. I believe God is in our hearts and we are born with God in us.

Yea that's interesting, and I would say something similar, but I was asking you what *you* beleived God to be? Do you have a set idea, or just the "force" thing?



All of us are good but can choose to do bad things. I absolutely do not believe in original sin. As in the bible if Adam ate the forbidden fruit it would be pretty petty to condem mankind for all time for it. Until I sin I am an innocent (already sinned)

You said earlier that at age 12 we know right from wrong and you say we are good but choose bad - so are you saying up to this point we can't choose to do bad and then we can at 12? Or we jsut know the diffeence at 12? And you don't believe in first sin, why is that harder to believe in than at 12 we can sin? Why not 1 or 35?

[patbez]

Nita. in the statement "I' m not so quick to turn my back on my culture", I really don't recall the word YOU being there. If you took that sentence to be aimed at you, that's on you not me.


Inuit, the full quote was "I'm glad you can forgive so easily. I'm not so quick to turn my back on my culture." How could anybody not take this as a sentance pointed at them personally - are you talking to somebody different after the first period? Not trying to gang up, just pointing out what I see.

[inuit]

Yes Parbez , me personally. That may be the difference in nita and me. I don't know. I am from northern isolated Canada. You must have heard about the residential schools in Nova Scotia. That too was not so long ago. Is it so hard to think that it was less than 30 years ago? Not exactly ancient history.

At age 12 I think you do know right from wrong. You may not be aware of all of the consequences of your actions but you do know right from wrong. A 12 year old may not be aware that burning too many candles in the bedroom could lead to house fire but he hides away and does it so he knows it's wrong. Get my point. Your parents teach you that from birth . A good solid base of right and wrong.

The quote you refer to about turning my back is two seperate sentences. If I was aiming at nita it would have been one conjoined sentence. I am not afraid to say what I mean. It wasn't aimed at her/him. I was making a statement. Sorry he/she took it that way.

[inuit]

Well KRS, share. What are their beliefs and attitudes. Not in depth but just general. I've sought out and questioned many christian religions but did not have an opportunity to inquire about non christian beliefs. BTW I have listened to the dali lama speak and loved what he said. He is so easy to understand. Preaches absolute love and acceptance. I of course just caught a small glimpse of what he is about. I don't pretend to know his religion.

[Nita]

Nita. in the statement "I' m not so quick to turn my back on my culture", I really don't recall the word YOU being there. If you took that sentence to be aimed at you, that's on you not me.

Give me a break. Saying something with "I'm not so quick to..." in front of it is almost always used [& taken] as an insult. You may not have capitalized the "I'M", but it was certainly implied. We may not have tone on the internet, but tone is implied when everything leading up to a certain sentence has a specific nature. & besides that fact, it doesn't even work in context with the rest of what you were saying. Never once prior was anything spoken about turning one's back on one's culture...& then all of a sudden a sentence like that popped out & it's expected to be believed it was just a general statement of fact about you? Hmmm...I don't usually encounter people that blurt out such things about themselves. I've never met someone that simply said, in passing, "I'm not so quick to turn my back on my culture". If you want to play it off that it wasn't an insult & I simply took it as being aimed at me without provocation or reason, that's on YOU...certainly not on me.

This discussion had NOTHING to do with culture until YOU mentioned it. You wanted to twist my capacity for forgiveness into being a snub or turning my back on my culture...when you don't even know me, nor do I see the correlation between the two. How is having forgiveness for the people that caused you [or your ancestors] suffering, turning you back on your culture?! That's just a bitter way to live life...& I don't intend to live my life that way. Feel free though...I think you're bitterness is enough for the both of us.

Funny if I was talking about molestation or rape you would not be saying Oh that was a long time ago forgive because it was a few bad people and move on. I guess because it was the church then it's o.k. Yes I have moved on but forgive No. I don't live my life in anger either I am aware what is past cannot be changed, but that doesn't mean I'm going to roll over and forget about it. I'm not stupid nor am I ignorant.

Actually...yes, yes I would. I feel everyone should have forgiveness or their bitterness will eat them up inside. However, in stating the "I guess because it was the church then it's o.k.", it shows me that maybe you didn't read what I said earlier....didn't I state that blame should be placed on each individual?! I don't think anybody, & certainly not me, said anything about it being okay "because" it was the church. Like I just said, I think that's an excuse not to hold each person accountable...way easier to place blame on one singular thing, hunh?

You presume that one would have to ignorant or stupid to forget...or forgive. You used the word forget...which is MUCH different than forgive, but it sounds like from other statements you made, you meant forgive as well. I don't expect anybody to forget the terrible things that have been done to the them. But forgiveness is a much different animal & it doesn't mean forgetting. My step-father was a raging alcoholic that did a lot of nasty things that I will never forget, but I forgive him. Also, I don't blame the alcohol & I have no problem with alcohol...I have a problem with nasty drunks. There's a difference. He was still a man, a man who chose to do the things he did. That's where the blame lies...not on a case of beer that many other men are capable of drinking, going home & NOT beating their wives. Nor should blame be placed on Christianity or the bible for what man decides to do.

In the next quote you highlight, I believe I have a right to believe whatever I want right or wrong that's what I believe.

You sure do. I don't recall ever saying otherwise...so now who's twisting words? I simply said that just because YOU personally don't believe something, doesn't mean it isn't true. I never once said you didn't have the right to believe whatever you wanted.

I'd like to hear some comments from other religions. I'm not very well familiar with other religions like Muslim, Buddist Hindu ect.. You may be right KRS but I personally have never been approched by anyone but christians.

Well, first of all, here in eastern Canada we don't have a huge population of other religions, like Muslim, Buddhist etc...so if you gauge that against the amount of Christians, that could be one reason you've never been approached by someone of a different religion than Christianity. KRS is right...live in Toronto & you will encounter all of the religions you mentioned. I lived there for 3 years & my best friend was Muslim. It has nothing to do with Christians taking over...it simply had to do with geographical location. You do make it sound, even if unintentionally, like you have been approached often by Christians, trying to brainwash you or something....I'm not sure where you're hanging out, but I may have been approached a few times in my ENTIRE life while out in public by a Christian[s] that have simply handed my a pamphlet or something similar. It's not like I was obligated to stand & shoot the "crap" with them or something. Alternatively, I've had Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door a handfull of times throughout my life. I seriously don't think that there's a grand scheme where all Christians are going around trying to convert everyone...because if you're not interested, than surely they aren't interested in making you interested. I don't think anyone's being tied down, forced to listen against their will. If you want to listen, I'm sure they're happy to talk. If you don't, you don't. Life goes on.

BTW I have listened to the dali lama speak and loved what he said. He is so easy to understand. Preaches absolute love and acceptance.

Wasn't what Jesus had to say pretty similar? & surely books will be written & in thousands of years people might question if the dali lama really said such things, even though right here & now, we know it to be true that he did. & if you loved what he said...doesn't absolute love & acceptance kind of fall right alone beside forgiveness? I don't know, to me such things kind of all go hand in hand.

[patbez]

I've sought out and questioned many christian religions but did not have an opportunity to inquire about non christian beliefs.
Well why would you bother, they are all wrong;)



BTW I have listened to the dali lama speak and loved what he said. He is so easy to understand. Preaches absolute love and acceptance.

That's the first clue to know someone is full of crap, when that's all they preach. We like it though because people like their ears tickled.

It would never make sense with me why one would assume God loves and acceptes everybody without question - doesn't that seem fishy? Of course I may be speaking out of terms since the Lami is an atheist right?

[rhiley_08j]

Jehoviah's Witnesses, their belief structure uses a different translation of the Bible than what Christians would consider "standard."

suggested in matt 24:34.



In my studies of the various religions I have come across mostly Christian religions, such as Baptist, Catholic, Penecostal, Seven Day Adventist, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses. I had heard the comment before about the Witnesses' bible so I asked for a copy. If you compare it to the original King James, it is pretty much identical, except for the fact that it has God's name in it more often than the King James.

As for Matt 24:34, read all of chapter 24, and based on what Jesus was telling his disciples if we had already reached the point in time that Jesus prophesied, the world wouldn't be the way it is today. In fact in my opinion he was talking about today or the future, in which I feel for our future offspring. For someone that seems to be fairly knowledgeable on the Bible, you can surely see that maybe the term generation, does not necessarily refer to what we today consider a generation.

[rhiley_08j]

Well why would you bother, they are all wrong;)




That's the first clue to know someone is full of crap, when that's all they preach. We like it though because people like their ears tickled.

It would never make sense with me why one would assume God loves and acceptes everybody without question - doesn't that seem fishy? Of course I may be speaking out of terms since the Lami is an atheist right?


You appear by your statement prior that you believe a lot in the Bible, but your statements now are appearing to be judgemental. Didn't Jesus teach humility?

[inuit]

Geeshe, Nita, I didn't realize I was talking to someone who understands EVERY christian religion in the world along with all of their intentions. Imagine my surprise! The bible says (and I can't quote exactly) go and spread the word of Jesus does it not? Maybe that's where the teachings of the bible that I speak of came in to it? Oh tell me if I'm wrong.

If you seriously don't think there never was a grand scheme of things to convert everyone to christanity the please explain the christian crusades to me. I learned that was the reason behind it. History must be wrong because you apparently know that to be wrong. Next explain all of the christian missionaries and their purpose to me. If not to convert to christianity, then what. Next ,what are you talking about if they were not interested in christanity it wasn't forced on them. What are you talking about? Ask any native person in this country what was or was not forced on them. You don't know the meaning of forced religion because it never happened to you or yours.

Don't tell me who to forgive or not. I will decide for myself without your help thank you very much. I've forgiven many in my life I too had an abusive murderous stepfather so I guess you don't hold the patent on that. He was an actual murderer.

Read it again, the bible does not preach tolerence or acceptance.

I do not imply I state. If I wanted to say something about your culture I would have said it in a manner that left no doubt. If you choose to read something into a sentence that was not there too bad. I never said it.

[inuit]

Patbez, I began seeking out other religions because I had reached a saturation point with mine and was gagging on it. I was about 12 or 13 I don't remember exactly. I went to every other church around where I grew up. Every one.Some I liked some not. They all used the same bible to preach from with exception of the JW's every other church was the same. The JW's had no minister that was different and a little strange I thought. I asked many JW's why their churches have no windows because for many years they didn't. Some new ones do. The answers made no sense and was never the same.
I'm not saying I'd like non-christian religions any better but for now am uninformed about them.

[rhiley_08j]

I asked many JW's why their churches have no windows because for many years they didn't. Some new ones do. The answers made no sense and was never the same.
I'm not saying I'd like non-christian religions any better but for now am uninformed about them.


I asked the same question about the windows, lol. I don't know what answer was given to you, but I was told it was to avoid vandalism. Makes sense to me.

As for the atrocities that Christians have done towards others, you are all right. There has been many circumstances, and they are certainly not right, or Christlike. Look at who has been at the forefront. Look how their values have changed over the years. The Bible does say that these things would happen, it also says that many would claim to be messengers of god, and that many would be misguided by religion in the name of God. All these things are told in the Bible, and it's up to ourselves to distinguish and find the truth behind the lies.

[inuit]

Rhiely ,you are indeed wise beyond your years!! When I asked back in the seventies, I was told because they were being spied on by neighbours, then in the eighties I was told to prevent break-ins and finally when I asked last year was told to prevent vandalism. Wonder what it'll be next decade?

[rhiley_08j]

Rhiely ,you are indeed wise beyond your years!! When I asked back in the seventies, I was told because they were being spied on by neighbours, then in the eighties I was told to prevent break-ins and finally when I asked last year was told to prevent vandalism. Wonder what it'll be next decade?


Thank you inuit. I appreciate the compliment. I don't know if it is so much as being wise but rather trying to keep my eyes open, and living my life guided by empathy. I always try to place myself in others shoes and determine why they feel the way they do. What made them come to the conclusions that they did?

[Nita]

Geeshe, Nita, I didn't realize I was talking to someone who understands EVERY christian religion in the world along with all of their intentions. Imagine my surprise! The bible says (and I can't quote exactly) go and spread the word of Jesus does it not? Maybe that's where the teachings of the bible that I speak of came in to it? Oh tell me if I'm wrong.

If you seriously don't think there never was a grand scheme of things to convert everyone to christanity the please explain the christian crusades to me. I learned that was the reason behind it. History must be wrong because you apparently know that to be wrong. Next explain all of the christian missionaries and their purpose to me. If not to convert to christianity, then what. Next ,what are you talking about if they were not interested in christanity it wasn't forced on them. What are you talking about? Ask any native person in this country what was or was not forced on them. You don't know the meaning of forced religion because it never happened to you or yours.

Don't tell me who to forgive or not. I will decide for myself without your help thank you very much. I've forgiven many in my life I too had an abusive murderous stepfather so I guess you don't hold the patent on that. He was an actual murderer.

Read it again, the bible does not preach tolerence or acceptance.

I do not imply I state. If I wanted to say something about your culture I would have said it in a manner that left no doubt. If you choose to read something into a sentence that was not there too bad. I never said it.


Hmmm...who is reading something into sentences here? If I'm guilty of this, surely you are too inuit. I never once said I knew every Christian religion in the world along with their intentions. Stop being so snarky buddy, it's not very becoming...

How could you even begin to know what I know the meaning of & what was or was not forced on me?! Goodness gracious, you need to grow up & stop making assumptions about other people. Just like you assumed how I would feel about forgiving rapists or molestors, just how you assume I turned my back on my culture. You sure have gotten personal with all of this, inuit.

I did not tell you who to forgive or not. Where did I write that? If *I* choose to read something into a sentence?! Wow, funny you should say that. Again...hypocritical, wouldn't you say?

You DO imply. You've done it several times. You imply & use sarcasm as your method of debate & belittlement. I personally will no longer take part in this debate w/ you, as it's futile.

[inuit]

Nita , How could I know what was or was not forced on you? Pretty simple really. To make such an idiot remark as to say nobody ever had christianity forced upon them is to say that if you didn't then nobody did. Grow up nita, just because it never happened to you does not mean it happened to no one. I am here to assure you it did and to whole generations of poor uneducated people.

You said it was not in the grand scheme of christianity to convert, yoiu say that like someone who actually know their intention.Just because nobody approched you and tried to convert you does not mean it never happened to anyone.You never lived in small remote areas in the north where it happened a lot.

Speak of what you know.

[inuit]

Rhiley I try empathy too. I have been known to lose my cool from time to time. I was a nurse for many years so empathy goes a long way when someone is being rude or hard to deal with. You always seem to keep your cool on these threads. Wish I had your self control. lol

[rhiley_08j]

Rhiley I try empathy too. I have been known to lose my cool from time to time. I was a nurse for many years so empathy goes a long way when someone is being rude or hard to deal with. You always seem to keep your cool on these threads. Wish I had your self control. lol


Don't stress Inuit. Life is too short to worry about the small things. You need to live your life for you, and everything else will fall into place.

[sanstu]

Hey, what's this about rhiley being and I quote "wise beyond his years". I thought rhiley was OLD. hehehe, just kiddin' kids. And now I feel like I should go to church or pray or something.

Nita, you sound like a great person. Being able to forgive, is a wonderful thing.

[inuit]

Forgivness is a wonderful thing. I think in my case anyway forgivness was done for my benefit not the person who had hurt me. It really never mattered to him if I forgave him or not. It didn't affect his life any but my anger sure did mine. It took me many years to realize to forgive him had nothing to do with him but would release me from anger and hurt. So I did forgive him and let go of it. He died of cancer about 5 years ago. I hadn't seen him in more than 20 years ago but when Mom told me he had died I cried like a baby. I don't know why. I had no desire to see him, to confront him or anything.

[FutureChief88]

How do you choose to forgive.. This is something i have NEVER been able to understand. These people who live through the murder of their children.. and forgive the killers.. so on and so forth..
I mean .. dont get me wrong.. I commend these people. But HOW does it happen. How do you forgive like that.. and HOW does it make YOU happy?

Asking a serious question.. I would def like some insight on this ..

[inuit]

I can't answer for everyone but for me futurecheif. Someone else may have whole dofferent ideas. I suffered depression low self esteem lack of confidence. Just plain suffered and didn't know why. My life was ok not great but livable. Finally one night in my darkest hour I realized I was still letting him affect my life. My hating him was not affecting his life any. He was free and happy. Just me still suffering and caged. I decided then and there to forgive him so I wouldn't have to live with the pain anymore. There was no good reason for what he'd done so I made some up for him. When I had given him reasons and then looked through his eyes I slowly was able to forgive. It set me free. My self worth and confidence came back. years ago if someone said something mean to me or insulted me I'd hang my head and say nothing and hate myself later for not standing up for myself. No more, now I'd stand up to the devil himself and I don't back down from my beliefs. Not to say that i think I'm always right and if proven wrong I'm the first to say sorry.That's my story Futurechief, this is how I did it.

[FutureChief88]

Hmm. Interesting.

I went through very minor assault (sexual) if you will.. and this man is still in my life. I just try and ignore it. I know it changed who i was but i ignore it cause it makes life easier.

But i guess i have never dealt with soemthing so horrible that is caused me to not life life.. I guess i wont understand until something like that happens

[rhiley_08j]

For myself, I was molested as a child, and came to grips with it; forgiving the individual who had done it to me. That person was sick, and I realized this. I think that in order to have true happiness in your life you have to find peace with yourself. In order to find peace with yourself you need to let go of the things that bring you down. You need to realize that no matter what happens to you in life you still have control of every situation, because you control your reactions. If a person doesn't realize this then they tend to loose themselves.

Like I stated before, you need to live your life for you, and that's not meaning to be selfish, but in order to be healthy in mind, body, and heart, you need to find peace within yourself. Then, and only then, will a person truly find happiness and contentment.

[inuit]

..

[FutureChief88]

O no.. He knows its a big deal. He is actually my mothers husband. Her and i have had run-ins about it.. because obviously i had concerns about leaving my child alone with him.. But he would never admit to ANYONe that he did what he did.. I think my mother STILL doesnt believe me.. even tho now i am a grown adult.. It bothers me to some extent.. and to be honest i hold more resentment towards my mother than anyone else. I am not one for confrontation.. and have very bad social anxiety.. i dont like to talk about things with people that are directly involved.. I would never be able to talk with him about it. I dont care if he feels bad.. it makes no difference to me.

[inuit]

..

[patbez]

You appear by your statement prior that you believe a lot in the Bible, but your statements now are appearing to be judgemental. Didn't Jesus teach humility?

I was reading over my previous quote trying to see where I came accross as judgemental. Maybe you can narrow this assumption down because I brought up maybe three issues in those sentances.

[patbez]

If you compare it to the original King James, it is pretty much identical, except for the fact that it has God's name in it more often than the King James.

Well you missed this great detail which certainly provides enough information to lower the credentials of the NWT translators. John 1:1 cites Jesus as "a god" rather than God.

When I said they were different I didn't mean the NWT forgot to add Genesis or said Paul went to a different town. I mean there are doctrinal differences based on slight variances which derive from unqualified translators (whom never reveled their identity by the way).




As for Matt 24:34, read all of chapter 24, and based on what Jesus was telling his disciples if we had already reached the point in time that Jesus prophesied, the world wouldn't be the way it is today. In fact in my opinion he was talking about today or the future, in which I feel for our future offspring. For someone that seems to be fairly knowledgeable on the Bible, you can surely see that maybe the term generation, does not necessarily refer to what we today consider a generation.

I don't want to scawable about what generation means because I would probably agree. This however is a small selection of the thoughts I put forward - only as a discussion because I am not really convinced of what I said anyhow!

[rhiley_08j]

Well you missed this great detail which certainly provides enough information to lower the credentials of the NWT translators. John 1:1 cites Jesus as "a god" rather than God.



Jesus is God's son, whether you believe in the Trinity or not, if you believe that Jesus is God's presence in the flesh, than the two would be separate. Jesus would not be considered GOD but rather a god in reference to heavenly rule.

[patbez]

Jesus is God's son, whether you believe in the Trinity or not, if you believe that Jesus is God's presence in the flesh, than the two would be separate. Jesus would not be considered GOD but rather a god in reference to heavenly rule.

John's point of the verse is identifying Jesus as divine and actually God. The NWT places Jesus below God the Father as his nature, not simply function.

I'm having a hard time following you argument here, but are you saying that you agree with the NWT or both? My point was to show there is a difference adn that was all.

[rhiley_08j]

Yes I am saying that I agree with both. What I have been saying all along is that if a person wants to find the truth they need to search for it. Don't take what others say as your basis for your beliefs but rather find them for yourself. There is truth behind everything in the bible, a person just needs to clarify for themselves exactly what it is. Many religions distort what the bible says, when rather people should learn to not complicate it, but rather take it for what it says.

[patbez]

Yes I am saying that I agree with both.

That's interesting since one interrpertation of this verse confirms a doctrine that is in opposition to a doctrine based on the other interrpertation. I don't know how one would agree with both since it has divided so many.



There is truth behind everything in the bible, a person just needs to clarify for themselves exactly what it is. Many religions distort what the bible says, when rather people should learn to not complicate it, but rather take it for what it says.

Unless I'm missing something your second sentance is the antheisis to the first. You say there is truth behind the bible and we need to clarify, but then take it for what it says.

In my experience people who read the bible and come to conclusions without further insight from others are extremely limited in their understanding and often hold harmful and incorrect views. The bible is very complicated and should not be taken simply for what it says. That is to limit the meaning behind the text and dumb down any deep insight to be gained.

I would agree many religions - or perhaps most, have beliefs that don't mesh well with the bible. Catholicism for one would be a prime example of course. You have to remember however religions are comprised of people and it is people who come up with crazy ideas when not critiqued or peer reviewed or open for debate, for example.

[rhiley_08j]

You can take what you want from what I say, but in all honesty my belief is for me, and me alone. If you want to take one scripture, and one word, such as a, to discredit one from the other, than that is certainly your perogative. I however, look at what the Bible says as a whole regarding this issue. In the Bible God repeatedly refers to Jesus as his son, and yes there are scriptures that refer to them as one, but there are also scriptures that refer to a husband and wife as one. The Bible is not as complicated as religions try to make it. By making people feel that is complicated allows the various religions to maintain their control because it keeps people coming back for answers. The answers are right there in front of them.

You want to use the topic of the Trinity to dispute... then explain to me what would God's purpose be to say that he is his son? Why would God deliberately try to confuse people and create dissention among people? That to me seems to be man's influence over people, and thus proves my reasoning of why I have no use for religion, as in denominations.

[wookiee]

Well I have to say this has been an interesting to read.....so I would like to say something.
I responed to this post at the very beginning and there was even some heavey debates and valid points.

I started reading the Koran and have consider converting to muslim. This makes more sense to me to follow and I feel that the religion is not corrupted like most are. I'm not going to knock anybody's belief down at all because people need to realize that if you believe in God and his ways or whatever it is for you....it all leads to one thing......one GOD.

Peace be upon you all.

[patbez]

You want to use the topic of the Trinity to dispute... then explain to me what would God's purpose be to say that he is his son? Why would God deliberately try to confuse people and create dissention among people? That to me seems to be man's influence over people, and thus proves my reasoning of why I have no use for religion, as in denominations.

No, my arguments were not trinity based. They were to show you the difference between two different translations - you brought in the Trinity if I remember correctly.

And though you didn't address anything I brought up I will reply to your last questions. "Son" is referring to position not nature - this is a common understanding for anyone familiar with biblical tradition and not something I am trying to debate. Why you think God is trying to confuse people because you (or others) don't understand something is false reasoning. If you don't understand a text book would you assume the writers are deliberately misleading you *or* you need to study some more? Everything in life that is great is complicated - even a table when you inspect it is not simply boards but made of atoms that are even more marvelous!

And nothing you said proves why you don't like religion or denominations. Basically you stated that you don't like them because people can influence people. Are you beyond influence because you don't go to church? Aside, the teachings contained in the bible point us toward a spiritual unity and there is no room for loners or people who try to do it all on their on. It's because they can't. God wants us to live communally and in harmony with others' - of course as anyone knows people are people and when we open ourselves up things can get messy, but that's needed for any type of growth.

[patbez]

I started reading the Koran and have consider converting to muslim. This makes more sense to me to follow and I feel that the religion is not corrupted like most are. I'm not going to knock anybody's belief down at all because people need to realize that if you believe in God and his ways or whatever it is for you....it all leads to one thing......one GOD.

It would be interesting to hear how you think these other religions are corrupted and the Koran isn't - since the Koran is basically a rip-off of the Bible. Religion won’t change you only Jesus can. I also disagree with this notion that all beliefs lead to one GOD. No they don't, some don't even belief in God, some believe in many, some God's have different names and characteristics. I don’t see how this would follow, right? But I would genuinely enjoy hearing you discoveries or insights from what you are learning.

[rhiley_08j]

A person can be spiritual and treat others as if they were their family without belonging to a denomination. God has been around before the beginning of time, and many cultures over the centuries have worshiped him in some form or another. The Bible is simply a medium in which God uses to spread his message, just as the Koran is, as well as other religious books. God sends his message to everyone on earth, and some hear it and apply it, and others do not. I think that based on what is prophesied there will be those from various different religions who will become God's chosen people.

If a person was to follow the masses than they would be following the wrong path because the bible says "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."
Matthew 7:13,14

On a site note Patbez, do me a favor, watch this and tell me what you think. http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

[wookiee]

It would be interesting to hear how you think these other religions are corrupted and the Koran isn't - since the Koran is basically a rip-off of the Bible. Religion won’t change you only Jesus can. I also disagree with this notion that all beliefs lead to one GOD. No they don't, some don't even belief in God, some believe in many, some God's have different names and characteristics. I don’t see how this would follow, right? But I would genuinely enjoy hearing you discoveries or insights from what you are learning.

The koran is not a rip off of the bible...the koran has never changed....unlike the bible...so please don't go there. If you would like to go there then prove it to me that the koran is a rip off of the bible???


So you think there is more then one god? Thats your opinion my friend. There is only one god.....you can't have more then one...lol

I would love to go on with you, but whats the point? I don't want to waste my breathe and or time with this as it would be an endless debate.

:D

[wookiee]

Patbez,

If there is something you want to know about it, feel free to send me a PM. I wont talk or debate about this hear. but feel free to contact me.:thumbsup:

[sanstu]

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

[rhiley_08j]

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.


Very nice sentiment sanstu!

[sanstu]

Thank you rhiley. I think there is so much debate going on in this thread(and you know how much I like a good debate. lol), I'm just not sure it's getting anywhere. When people misinterpret verses it causes conflict,which seems to be happening in this thread.

Just a side note, on you tube there is an interesting segment on the "church of Oprah." Interesting to watch and certainly thought provoking.


youtube.com/watch?v=JW4LLwkgmqA

[rhiley_08j]

Matthew 7:15-20
“Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].

[patbez]

The Bible is simply a medium in which God uses to spread his message, just as the Koran is, as well as other religious books. God sends his message to everyone on earth, and some hear it and apply it, and others do not. I think that based on what is prophesied there will be those from various different religions who will become God's chosen people.

Well, as a follower of Christ and someone who believes in the Biblical writings, I disagree, so we can only agree to disagree here I suppose!


If a person was to follow the masses than they would be following the wrong path because the bible says "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."
Matthew 7:13,14

I wouldn't say this follows. As you may now the passage is talking about personal salvation for those who believe in what Jesus did (or at least it is a precursor to that idea). So if no one or everyone believed in this it wouldn't reflect on its truth that Jesus can rescue us. That is true no matter how many believe.


On a site note Patbez, do me a favor, watch this and tell me what you think. http://zeitgeistmovie.com/



I checked it out - very strange, but I would watch it once it's released. I'm only suspicious that it's a left wing conspiracy attack, but it's hard to judge, and sometimes I enjoy that anyhow! I think it had a date at the end but I forget it now - this summer?

[rhiley_08j]

I checked it out - very strange, but I would watch it once it's released. I'm only suspicious that it's a left wing conspiracy attack, but it's hard to judge, and sometimes I enjoy that anyhow! I think it had a date at the end but I forget it now - this summer?


For the most part we tend agree, but where we disagree is why I don't believe in organized religion. Anyway, agree to disagree. As for the movie, you can download it from the site. You are right that it is controversial to say the least, but I like to keep an open mind to things, as I am sure that there is still I great deal I will continue to learn.:D