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MrsBeasley
05-17-2007, 06:13 PM
The town of Quispamsis has just passed a new by-law that states that if your dog is found to bite another dog or person it may be "euthanized on the spot".

It appears that they have passed this new by-law without investigating and consulting local veterinary professionals, animal behaviourists etc. The reason behind this is due to a "number of complaints" and to save court fees in taking pet owners to court over dog bite issues.

How/who are they to judge what dog gets euthanized??

Say a dog comes yapping at another, the dogs get into a fight and both get bitten. Who gets euthanized??? One??? Both???

Also what about the Government rule that a dog that bites must be quarantined or have brain tissue sent to the Provincial Lab (if not quarantined) to ensure it doesn't have rabies. Are they going to take brain tissue "on the spot" as well.

As a pet professional and a pet owner who happens to reside within the town of Quispamsis feel that the passing of this new town by-law is totally unrealistic and unfair to all residants of Quispamsis since we as a whole had no say in this proposal before it went to council.

puppyluv
05-17-2007, 06:26 PM
How do they know if either dog etc was tormented, protecting itself etc?

I think that bylaw sucks and should be opposed!

T4
05-17-2007, 06:36 PM
Mrs. Beasley...I agree ONE HUNDRED percent!! I mean who actually was "asked" whose "input", what "statistics" are they going by?? I mean c'mon.Like you said, what if another dog comes at your dog while you are walking? Your dog is going to do what is natural, protect YOU!! Who decides who is euthanised? I can't imagine any, and I mean ANY local vet with ethics, putting an animal down...just "because".

This should be interesting. I am an owner of the dreaded "black and tans", as some like to refer to them,we encounter many different dogs along our walks. Can you imagine the scenario if they were involved in a dog fight? There would be no questions asked...they would be put down, just "because" of the breed they are and they were involved in a dog fight, that was not provoked by them? I think that owners of certain breeds may end up being "targets" for this stupid law.

I think the bylaw is STUPID, it shows the lack of concern that the current town council has for it's residents!! I certainly hope that there isn't an election out there anytime soon!!

MrsBeasley
05-17-2007, 06:42 PM
Strangely enough in my email today, I received this email from DogAge (their tip of the week):


May 20-26 is National Dog Bite Prevention Week. Do you know how to prevent your dog from being on the giving end of a bite?

Each year, 4.7 million Americans suffer a dog bite. To reduce the likelihood that your pet will bite -- even just a nip -- take these precautions:

• Have your dog spayed or neutered to lower the risk of roaming and getting into fights with other dogs. Beware: Owners who intervene are sometimes bitten.
• From the time your dog is a pup, familiarize him with different people, places, and situations so he'll remain calm among strangers and in a variety of environments.
• Play gently with your dog: Aggressive play encourages aggressive behavior.
• If your dog often snarls or growls, seek help from your veterinarian or an animal behaviorist.

Sandra McIllwraith
05-18-2007, 11:51 AM
I would like to say that I am in favour of the new dog by law in Quispamsis. The bottom line is, as a dog owner it is your responsibility to ensure that your dog is properly leashed and under control at all times. It is unfortunate that some dog owners take no responsibility for their pet. As a parent whose son was attacked and bitten by a dog, I say this by- law is long over due. Not bad dogs, just irresponsible owners.

girdy
05-18-2007, 12:53 PM
I don't think there should be any leeway whatsoever for dogs biting people. A dog who bites someone should immediately be put down. Either the dog is a risk, or the owner is a risk. If the owner is believed to be the problem, there is little point in removing the dog from the owner, because there is already an issue with having enough suitable owners for the available animals. And if the owner has ingrained the biting behaviour in the animal, it may only be a matter of time before something happens.

Dogs biting dogs, I expect what they're trying to get at is the scenario where an aggresive dog is getting loose and is mauling other dogs.

Quispam has provided itself a means of dealing with the problem animals through bylaws, and presumably some suitable discretion will get used. But we've all heard horror stories of a municipality that can't quickly do something about a problem animal which later goes on and mauls a kid. Good for them to get properly positioned to deal with the issue should it come up.

jaxon
05-18-2007, 01:18 PM
seems like a contridiction. i just heard the other day that a provincial was passed leaving the decision to the Animal control officer....

christine chittick
05-18-2007, 01:59 PM
I just contacted my friend LeeAnn O'Reilly who is president of the Dog Legislation Council of Canada...waiting to hear back on it.

I agree that people should be in control of their pets, but in some instances a dog is protecting itself, or it is provoked or is raised by irresponsible owners. I see a lot of people owning pets, especially large, strong breeds of dogs and do not understand dog behavior patterns, and dismiss/misdiagnose some underlying socialization or temperament problem or allow their dogs be 'babysitters',and trust their dogs 100%....and when the dog finally reacts it is the dogs fault.

frylock
05-18-2007, 02:13 PM
I just contacted my friend LeeAnn O'Reilly who is president of the Dog Legislation Council of Canada...waiting to hear back on it.

I agree that people should be in control of their pets, but in some instances a dog is protecting itself, or it is provoked or is raised by irresponsible owners. I see a lot of people owning pets, especially large, strong breeds of dogs and do not understand dog behavior patterns, and dismiss/misdiagnose some underlying socialization or temperament problem or allow their dogs be 'babysitters',and trust their dogs 100%....and when the dog finally reacts it is the dogs fault.

I totally agree with girdy's comments... I think they also actually deal with the above already.

I mean yes, it's sad that dogs can get screwed in the head by bad owners, but the bottom line is still that the dog is screwed in the head.

As girdy said, the world already can't handle the number of dogs out there, so when we are already euthanizing "okay dogs", why bother spending time and money to save "screwy dogs" that have already bitten someone and may bite again? It just wouldn't make sense, to me anyway.

Some may point out that the "screwy dogs" can be rehabilitated... but people could probably save 2 "okay dogs" for the time/money/effort it takes to rehabilitate a "screwy dog".

(and I know "screwy dog" isn't the best term to use, but I'm too tired to think of another adjective :o )

frylock
05-18-2007, 02:31 PM
Forgot to add... in writing the above, I had in mind cases where the dog bites someone unprovoked.

The by-law says the dog "may be" euthanized if it bites (not will be)... so I'm sure in cases where the dog is protecting someone, or had idiots harrassing it, it will not be euthanized.

In all likelihood, I bet the "on the spot" part of the by-law will only be used in rare cases. girdy said it well:


"Quispam has provided itself a means of dealing with the problem animals through bylaws, and presumably some suitable discretion will get used. But we've all heard horror stories of a municipality that can't quickly do something about a problem animal which later goes on and mauls a kid. Good for them to get properly positioned to deal with the issue should it come up."

It's simply a "just in case" by-law.

Sandra McIllwraith
05-18-2007, 04:55 PM
FYI, by taking the dog owner to court it costs minimum of $2000.00 dollars. Twenty incidents a year(for example) works out to $40000.00 minimum in court costs. Since the dog owners cannot be "put down" then this by-law had to be put in place. This by-law will not affect responsible dog owners only the irresponsible ones.

MrsBeasley
05-18-2007, 06:33 PM
FYI, by taking the dog owner to court it costs minimum of $2000.00 dollars. Twenty incidents a year(for example) works out to $40000.00 minimum in court costs. Since the dog owners cannot be "put down" then this by-law had to be put in place. This by-law will not affect responsible dog owners only the irresponsible ones.


The by-law certainly did not have to be put into place. By the sounds of it even responsible pet owners could be affected. For example I have two large mixed breed dogs, neither one of them have bitten (to my knowledge at least), however they are getting up in age and I know for sure one of them is developing a bad back. Given the right circumstances I'm sure he could potentially bite if handled in the wrong way. Just as any dog, provoked or not has the potential to bite.

Also: local animal control officers (who are separate from the SPCA) are not legally allowed to carry appropriate drugs to perform euthanasia.

Even the strongest drug the SPCA uses (as well as the Animal Rescue League) is T61 in which case the animal is "supposed" to be sedated first as it is not a very nice drug to use (it paralizes the respiratory system to the point where the animal succumbs due to suffocation) even then they are not permitted to carry it outside the shelter. Only Paul Melanson (the head of the NBSPCA) is legally licensed to carry T61 with him personally to calls.

Therefore what they propose to carry out with the new by-law is not legal.

Besides, the town council did not consult with any professionals or even the residents of Quispamsis before passing the new By-Law. What do they use to back up the need for such a by-law?? I'm sure there could be less drastic measures that could be taken than euthanizing someone's pet "on the spot" as they put it.

I chose to work in the animal field, I had to be vaccinated against rabies when I was in school, however if I were to sue every pet owner for every unprovoked dog bite (even cat bites) I have received in my years of work, I would be a very rich woman today.

Sandra McIllwraith
05-18-2007, 10:13 PM
In response to MrsBeasley, When you have a dog it is your responsibility to ensure you always have it under control. It is costing the Town of Quispamsis a great deal of money, (and yes, ultimately the tax payers) taking irresponsible dog owners to court. Further, prior to this by-law, if a dog was attacked by another dog, animal control's hands were tied. (a dog biting another dog did not fall under the old by-law)
Two years ago my sister was walking her dog, (on a leash) when the dog was attacked by a rottie that had gotten away from the owner. The bites to the dogs leg were so deep they went to the bone. It took a year and several court appearences before the rottie was ordered out of Quispamsis. Thank God it wasn't a child.

puppyluv
05-19-2007, 05:35 AM
In response to MrsBeasley, When you have a dog it is your responsibility to ensure you always have it under control. It is costing the Town of Quispamsis a great deal of money, (and yes, ultimately the tax payers) taking irresponsible dog owners to court. Further, prior to this by-law, if a dog was attacked by another dog, animal control's hands were tied. (a dog biting another dog did not fall under the old by-law)
Two years ago my sister was walking her dog, (on a leash) when the dog was attacked by a rottie that had gotten away from the owner. The bites to the dogs leg were so deep they went to the bone. It took a year and several court appearences before the rottie was ordered out of Quispamsis. Thank God it wasn't a child.

Regarding bites adn kids....It is also the responsibility of the parent to "control" their children..which I can say doesnt always happen and the animal shouldnt be the one being punished because of children who have NO concept of how to behave around an animal. When I was young I approached a dog I shouldhat have and was bit. Was it the dogs fault? NO, it was my fault for not knowing enough to not approach a dog protecting their property!

girdy
05-19-2007, 08:51 AM
Regarding bites adn kids....It is also the responsibility of the parent to "control" their children..which I can say doesnt always happen and the animal shouldnt be the one being punished because of children who have NO concept of how to behave around an animal. When I was young I approached a dog I shouldhat have and was bit. Was it the dogs fault? NO, it was my fault for not knowing enough to not approach a dog protecting their property!

I understand your point, I had a similar incident when I was a kid and learned from it. But the rights of domestic animals don't supercede the rights of humans, and protecting our kids is a higher priority than protecting our pets. We chose to domesticate them and have them live among us, we can subsequently choose not to have them live among us when they form a danger.

puppyluv
05-19-2007, 05:06 PM
Girdy, I don't agree 100% with you, although I do to an extent. Many dogs will NOT bite without a great amount of provocation....

to state my point, no one has the right to come and say "your dog bit "___" so I am going to destroy him/her on the spot. I would involve a lawyer etc if I felt there was an issue.
Now, if my dorks ran out and did that, I would be the one talking them in..there is always a reason to be found, whether good or bad in my opinion.

trinity
05-19-2007, 05:20 PM
I don't agree with this either, I lost a pet about 31 years ago because a woman was walking past our house and my dog ran over and jumped up on her and his claws punctured her leather coat. He didn't even bite, he was being friendly. He was just such a big black lab that the weight of his paws on her pushed his claws through the leather-she didn't even get so much as a scratch-they didn't even go all the way through the leather. My parents had to buy her a new coat and my mother wore the jacket for quite a few years as we were low on cash and she couldn't stand to see an expensive coat go to waste.. I came home from school and my dog was dead, just like that. he was such a gentle dog, When our cat had kittens, if she left the box to eat, he would watch over the kittens and lick them. he tried to get in the box with them, but he was too big, so he would sit beside it and whine if they climbed out. And how are they going to euthanize "on the spot?"- what, will they have roaming "vetmobiles" complete with needles? As I said, it's been 31 years and I never forgot. I had another little dog that was very protective-once a stranger came in our back porch-he was looking for the downstairs tenants and went in the wrong door, and 20 lbs of compact fury tore down the stairs snarling and slavering with bared teeth like a 100 lb Doberman. She didn't bite him because he froze and was too afraid to move. She just knew that man didn't belong in our house. Should she be punished for that? And what about people who report dog bites to be spiteful or petty-they don't like you so they get your pet killed? Oh like that would never happen? Neighbour disputes escalating to them faking a dog bite with a fork or something? Or deliberately goading your dog into attacking so they can hurt you?

MrsBeasley
05-19-2007, 05:31 PM
In response to MrsBeasley, When you have a dog it is your responsibility to ensure you always have it under control. It is costing the Town of Quispamsis a great deal of money, (and yes, ultimately the tax payers) taking irresponsible dog owners to court. Further, prior to this by-law, if a dog was attacked by another dog, animal control's hands were tied. (a dog biting another dog did not fall under the old by-law)
Two years ago my sister was walking her dog, (on a leash) when the dog was attacked by a rottie that had gotten away from the owner. The bites to the dogs leg were so deep they went to the bone. It took a year and several court appearences before the rottie was ordered out of Quispamsis. Thank God it wasn't a child.


Now my dogs are in my own yard behind invisible fence. They are never out when no one is home, as long as the weather is nice they are pretty much outside as they prefer to be there. For the most part I can see everything that goes on in my driveway through a large window, unfortunately sometimes I am out of the room and miss something.

On occasion a couple of neighbour dogs have ventured into my yard and my dogs have responded naturally to the intrusion. As the neighbors have called their dogs out of my yard and my dogs have followed (getting zapped going both in and out of the driveway). Now tell me had my dogs bitten and caused damage, would I be considered the irresponsible pet owner???? Would my pet be put down??? I would like to see the Town of Quispamsis try, because they would have to put me down first after they managed to get my teeth out of the animal control officer or whoever responded to the call.

rubycshells
05-19-2007, 05:47 PM
Regarding bites adn kids....It is also the responsibility of the parent to "control" their children..which I can say doesnt always happen and the animal shouldnt be the one being punished because of children who have NO concept of how to behave around an animal. When I was young I approached a dog I shouldhat have and was bit. Was it the dogs fault? NO, it was my fault for not knowing enough to not approach a dog protecting their property!

I agree. I don't know how many families that I have come across that don't teach their children how to behave around animals. I have two dogs and have taught my son how to be respectful of our dogs as well as any others he comes across. I had a family visiting me when one of my dogs was a pup. I caught the 17 year old son teasing my dog. He kept flicking his hand in front of the pup trying to get him to bite. I put a stop to that immediately....the problem now is that my dog is very leery when someone wants to pet him and starts to put their hand towards his head. So I just ask people to not try to pet him until he has had a chance to get to know them and never let people on the street pet him.

puppyluv
05-19-2007, 06:08 PM
Now my dogs are in my own yard behind invisible fence. They are never out when no one is home, as long as the weather is nice they are pretty much outside as they prefer to be there. For the most part I can see everything that goes on in my driveway through a large window, unfortunately sometimes I am out of the room and miss something.

On occasion a couple of neighbour dogs have ventured into my yard and my dogs have responded naturally to the intrusion. As the neighbors have called their dogs out of my yard and my dogs have followed (getting zapped going both in and out of the driveway). Now tell me had my dogs bitten and caused damage, would I be considered the irresponsible pet owner???? Would my pet be put down??? I would like to see the Town of Quispamsis try, because they would have to put me down first after they managed to get my teeth out of the animal control officer or whoever responded to the call.

You crack me up..ps.. I agree with you though:p

christine chittick
05-19-2007, 06:20 PM
My biggest peeve is the idiots out there walking their dogs off lead around people - and do not leash them when people do approach etc.

I used to take my rotties down by the Nature Trail, that little area on the top of the hill on the right where that little pond is. I had one of those scoop things that you can pick tennis balls or hockey balls up and using this you could throw them a fair distance. I neverdid it if there were people around - although my dogs are very well behaved/trained and come when called.

Anyhow, there was a few cars parked there one day (even though no one was in them) when I took my male rottie down there, so I figured I would put him on the leash and take a walk and work on some obedience with him...instead of throwing the ball for him. I was doing some off leash healing when I seen a man in the distance carrying a wooden stick about 4-5ft long- with a dog. I immediately put my dog on the leash and as we got closer to the man with the dog, I noticed his dog was not leashed... Next thing I know his dog comes in front of him towards me and my dog - he doesnt call his dog. I politely asked him to call his dog off - even though my dog was ok with other animals...he didn't his dog ended up circling me and my dog baring teeth and growling. My dog was ignoring him for the most part as we kept walking except when the other dog made attempts to bite my dogs hind quarters. I yelled for the man to call his dog off - by this time he was only about 10 or so feet away. He once again did not. I was quite angry at this point - and told him that I am not going to be responsible for his dog if he bites my dog and my dog reacts. When he got up to me and my dog - he HIT my dog with this stick and accused MY dog who was leashed and for the most part ignoring his dog except when the dog made attempts to come up and get his hind end...and then my dog only looked at the dog. My dog(s) are trained to ignore other dogs for the most part as I show them.... I told the man that my dog was not the problem and he said if my dog went at his again he would kill my dog. I told him that if he did anything else to my dog that I would personally shove that stick somewheres where the sun doesn't shine and that I would follow him up to his vehicle and get his license plate number and report him to police for making threats. Anyhow the idiot never said any more and walked away - with his idiot dog STILL unleashed!!

I'm sorry but if your dog has dog to dog aggression issues - leash it up instead of being ignorant and blaming well trained and behaved dogs for his dogs issues.

I do my best to insure my dogs are well taken care of, and I do the proper thing to insure my dogs safety and of those around around me when I am in public with my dogs. Not saying my dogs would ever bite someone, but I never trust my dogs or any other dogs 100%....

MrsBeasley
05-19-2007, 06:24 PM
I live two doors down from the Town of Rothesay line. I guess I know which direction I'm going to turn out my drive whenever I decide to walk my dogs from now on!!!

girdy
05-19-2007, 06:49 PM
Girdy, I don't agree 100% with you, although I do to an extent. Many dogs will NOT bite without a great amount of provocation....

to state my point, no one has the right to come and say "your dog bit "___" so I am going to destroy him/her on the spot. I would involve a lawyer etc if I felt there was an issue.
Now, if my dorks ran out and did that, I would be the one talking them in..there is always a reason to be found, whether good or bad in my opinion.

Hopefully there will be some common sense used when they're applying the new bylaw. Better yet, here's hoping they don't have a need to apply it at all.

adorabull
05-20-2007, 09:32 PM
[quote=T4;100953

I am an owner of the dreaded "black and tans[/quote]

The animal control officer breeds the dreaded black and tans too (dobes, not rotts though) best thing you can do is cover your own butt, this a an all breed specific legislation, but no one wanted to listen to me, when I did my seminars and booths, very stipping of your rights eh?

MrsBeasley
05-21-2007, 08:14 AM
Rights???!!! We have Rights???!!!

If the Town of Quispamsis council cared at all about the general population of the area, they would've consulted some professionals of the area as well as the general public before passing the by-law.

Instead they pass a by-law to euthanise an animal if it bites or if it threatens to bite??? They pass this by-law based upon a few court cases and complaints, well what about the rest of the general population???

I'm sorry but EVERY dog has the potential to bite, it's their only natural defence aside from flight. (fight or flight). A dog will not bite for no good reason, if it does then possibly it must've felt threatened in some way.

Yes, there are irresponsible pet owners out there who do need to be responsible for their pets, however there are many more responsible pet owners who may lose their beloved pet over what could be an accidental incident.

Maybe what we need is an animal control officer who isn't afraid of getting bit!!

christine chittick
05-21-2007, 08:38 AM
Well said Mrs. Beasley

adorabull
05-21-2007, 07:08 PM
Ahhhh so true soooooo true....:rofl: LOVE IT!

SaskSask
05-22-2007, 09:12 AM
I love this age...where people don't take responsibility for their own dumb ass actions. My parents taught me to look both ways before crossing the road (even if it is a marked crosswalk)....and they also taught me to be weary of strange dogs I haven't meet before. I'm not saying the dog owner doesn't have any responsibility. But come on people....use some freaking common sense!

sanstu
05-22-2007, 09:24 PM
99% of dog bites are brought on by the person being bitten? This is the most ridiculous comment so far regarding the by law in Quispamsis! People, do not get a dog if you do not have the time(and money) to properly supervise and train your dog. A well trained and socialized dog is not just a joy to the owner but to others as well. PS if your dog is "escaping" your invisible fencing, then they have not been properly trained and need more work.

Corky
05-23-2007, 03:02 PM
I don't agree with that fully,What if the does has been teased but a kid or another person.which happens all the time.Why should they be put down for something the kid or person did..Kids should be taught not to go around strange dogs and not to tease them..adults should know not to go around dogs that they don't know..i do it but i can tell what a good dog is and what a bad dog can look like...so that is my opinion on that

adorabull
05-27-2007, 10:53 PM
I don't agree with that fully,What if the does has been teased but a kid or another person.which happens all the time.Why should they be put down for something the kid or person did..Kids should be taught not to go around strange dogs and not to tease them..adults should know not to go around dogs that they don't know..i do it but i can tell what a good dog is and what a bad dog can look like...so that is my opinion on that

Never assume Corky, I got a 1inch gouge out of my hand for thinking a dog is friendly, dogs can be (humm how do I word this) a dog will bite even though its tail is wagging. even for adults ASK THE OWNER TO PET IT! I am an animal professional, and I still ask, you dont know if the dog has a history of biting or not, you would be surprised at the ammount of people that will say "yah shes ok but id preffer you not to"
Or in my case who has a "sterotypical Pitbull type" no one will pet my dog, and hes been certified out the whooha " Canine good neighbour testing through the ckc, and a temperment test through the american temperment testing ass. but then again im super anal, unfortunatly my dog has to be perfect in public, my dog licks your kids to hard and the headlines read "pitbull bites childs face" anywaysssss.....its all about responsible ownership, but that will never happen, and that is why laws come into effect and ruin it for the people who do care. and you dont think about it until its to late, still not half as still as the legislation in ontario so be thankful for that!

Atchbe
05-28-2007, 03:33 PM
I don't think this new bylaw is going to be as bad as most people are fearing it will be. I think it will punish the truly bad but there will be allowances for certain situations.

Atchbe
05-31-2007, 03:34 PM
Maybe what we need is an animal control officer who isn't afraid of getting bit!!<!-- / message -->
I just read this-who likes getting bit? lol From what I understand the ACO does not make the law.

MrsBeasley
05-31-2007, 04:30 PM
I just read this:rofl: You do know the Animal Control officer does not make the law up, or even has an input into the law in Quispamsis. Quispamsis has had a huge problem with dog bites and they felt the need to do something. They did not consult the ACO to come to this decision.

You are right he doesn't make up the law, however the town of Quispamsis has given him the control as to what animals get euthanised, and he has admitted to have had no formal training in animal behavior. So imagine the lawsuits on him if he makes the decision to euthanise someone's pet by mistaking it's behavior to be aggressive behavior.

Atchbe
05-31-2007, 04:58 PM
MrsBeasley, I just didn't feel it was appropriate how you worded yourself with this comment Maybe what we need is an animal control officer who isn't afraid of getting bit!!<!-- / message --> . No one including the Vet's or animal behaviorists "like" getting bitten.

So imagine the lawsuits on him if he makes the decision to euthanise someone's pet by mistaking it's behavior to be aggressive behavior. Quote by MrsBeasley
I don't think it's going to go that far. Perhaps you should call the ACO to see what his agenda is instead of just "assuming" things and "assuming" what may happen and the what if's.:)

MrsBeasley
06-01-2007, 10:12 PM
MrsBeasley, I just didn't feel it was appropriate how you worded yourself with this comment .

No one including the Vet's or animal behaviorists "like" getting bitten.


I don't think it's going to go that far. Perhaps you should call the ACO to see what his agenda is instead of just "assuming" things and "assuming" what may happen and the what if's.:)

So sorry you feel that a small attempt at humour is not appropriate. Leads me to believe that you know the "ACO" personally.

I work in the animal health field, and yes...none of us "professionals" like getting bit, hell I'm nursing a nasty set of cat scratches and a cat bite that has my thumb twice it's normal size right now. But would I have that cat euthanized on the spot for biting me????.......NO!

I'm assuming for imagining what "May" occurr???? ok how's this for example....I Quote: "I don't think it's going to go that far" Is that not an assumption also????

Oh well, if the "ACO" gets sued for calling a euthanasia
against someones pet, I won't feel sorry for him in the least,after all according to the law it'll be his call as he is contracted by the town to do so. Hell if it were my dog, I'd be at the lawyers office before they could fill the syringe.

I just don't see how the "ACO" who gets called onto the scene after an altercation with a dog and another person, dog, cat, or whatever can determine who or what animal is at fault in a he said, she said situation can opt to euthanize one particular animal over another "on the spot" in such a situation. Would that not also be an assumption????

All I can say is "God Forbid" if a child, or animal is maimed severely or killed by a dog then I would expect a thorough investigation to be run before the animal is destroyed, because if that animal is destroyed "on the spot" there is no way of proving it's innocence to the fact that maybe it was either defending itself or someone/something else. Because it is an animal and cannot talk should it always be considered the guilty party???????

Don't take me wrong, I'm not a high and mighty animal rights activist, I have seen many dogs and cats euthanized because they have the potential to pose a public hazzard, however they have always been quarantined for a number of reasons before euthanizing, the main two reasons being: 1. Is the animal truely as nasty as said? and 2. Is it harbouring a zoonotic disease ( a disase that is transmissible to humans or other species) such as rabies.

There are many dogs out there that could be "saved" from the fate that the Town of Quispamsis has bestowed upon them if only given the option to work with a professional who deals with animal behavior issues first.

I just find it funny that the Town of Quispamsis has had more aggressive animal complaints and court cases than any other local municipality. If they want to save money so bad on court cases then why don't they make it so that when you obtain you're annual dog licences that you have also completed an animal handling/obedience course or give those that haven't a discount on one. Those animals who are found to not have licences, must obtain one and go through an obedience program within a certain time frame

Atchbe
06-02-2007, 08:02 PM
Quote by MrsBeasley So sorry you feel that a small attempt at humour is not appropriate. Leads me to believe that you know the "ACO" personally.

I didn't realize it was an attempt at humor. I have met the ACO, my impression of him was a good one.ffice:office" /><O:p></O:p>

Quote by MrsBeasley I'm assuming for imagining what "May" occurr???? ok how's this for example....I Quote: "I don't think it's going to go that far" Is that not an assumption also???? The media will and does dramatize items from time to time. I feel this is one of those times.

I work in the animal health field, and yes...none of us "professionals" like getting bit
Which vet clinic do you work at, just out of curiosity?
<O:p></O:p>
Quote by MrsBeasley Oh well, if the "ACO" gets sued for calling a euthanasia
against someones pet, I won't feel sorry for him in the least,after all according to the law it'll be his call as he is contracted by the town to do so.
Hmmm, another stab at humour, or just taking your anger out on someone who did not make the law and whose only fault is to be working in the Quispamsis area. I feel badly for anyone who would have to make such a decision.

This is exactly the reason why I think people who work in the pet industry, especially in the Quispamsis/Rothesay area should talk to the Town of Quispamsis or the ACO to find out exactly how this law will be Implemented and find out if the media had their facts staight.

Quote by MrsBeasley I just don't see how the "ACO" who gets called onto the scene after an altercation with a dog and another person, dog, cat, or whatever can determine who or what animal is at fault in a he said, she said situation can opt to euthanize one particular animal over another "on the spot" in such a situation. Would that not also be an assumption????

This is why I mentioned you should contact someone and find out what's really going on.

Quote by MrsBeasley If they want to save money so bad on court cases then why don't they make it so that when you obtain you're annual dog licences that you have also completed an animal handling/obedience course or give those that haven't a discount on one. Those animals who are found to not have licences, must obtain one and go through an obedience program within a certain time frame
That's actually a pretty good idea, why not share this with the Town of Quispamsis. I think people in the pet industry should pull together and help each other out instead of getting offensive and angry. You may be surprised at what you might find out;)

I am not trying to be argumentive. I just thought you might be interested in getting in touch with someone and find out what's really going to happen and exactly what this new by law entails.:)

sanstu
06-02-2007, 09:39 PM
The term "euthanized on the spot" I believe is a figure of speech. Considering there are by-laws currently in place (leash law), the town of Quispamsis, by adding this by-law is saying there is zero tolerence regarding unprovoked attacks, either to people or another animal. All of the "what ifs", do not change the fact that the town of Quispam. has been having problems dealing with dog bites, and the owners of these dogs. Don't get me wrong, I am a dog lover, however I don't love having a dog come running at me off leash and unsupervised.
I applaud Mrs. Beasley's dedication to animals, however I think maybe she is letting her love for animals cloud her judgement on this issue.

Atchbe
06-03-2007, 09:32 AM
Well said sanstu :D .

I'm sure a dog that bites in fear will certainly be looked at differently as the dog was put into a fight, flight or freeze position.

This is why I encourage those who are upset by this new by law to talk to the ACO or to the Town of Quispamsis to get the facts. If I took the media quote to heart and believed it I would have been upset just as Mrs. Beasley's is.

MrsBeasley
06-03-2007, 02:35 PM
Hmmmm.....assuming............. who's to say I haven't done my own research on the matter.

Damn right I'm upset....I live in Quispamsis and have dogs and the Town council goes and passes some crazy By-law without consulting any animal behaviour specialists, veterinarians, etc., not even the general public. Just because they want to save a buck on legal fees.

Atchbe
06-04-2007, 06:47 AM
Quote by MrsBeasley Hmmmm.....assuming............. who's to say I haven't done my own research on the matter.
Who have you spoken with? What research have you done?

sanstu
06-04-2007, 10:27 AM
Who have you spoken with? What research have you done? I ask because the ideas you have are basically reflecting what the media put out there and the ARL ran with as well.

Great questions Atchbe:) . The decision to enact this by law, would have been made in consultation with the town manager, solicitor and members of council, along with information from the ACO. It is doubtful that Mrs. Beasley could have conducted any "research" into the Town's decision .(research normally takes several years) I further feel that her uniformed comments and disrespect for the ACO (I won't feel sorry for him if he is sued) and in the same breath stating she/he is employed in the "animal field" is very narrow-minded indeed! I am sure the town manager would clarify any concerns regarding this by law. As to the town only enacting this by law to "save a buck", this will hopefully save the town (and myself, as a taxpayer) 10's of thousands per yr, and for that I say hooray!!

MrsBeasley
06-04-2007, 08:13 PM
Who have you spoken with? What research have you done? I ask because the ideas you have are basically reflecting what the media put out there and the ARL ran with as well.

Gee in one post , you praise my ideas and say I should make a suggestion to the Town Council and then a few posts later you basically hint that I "borrowed" similar ideas from the press and ARL. Just a FYI, asside from the initial information I received from a co-worker, I have not read, listened or watched any media coverage on the subject.


Great questions Atchbe:) . The decision to enact this by law, would have been made in consultation with the town manager, solicitor and members of council, along with information from the ACO.

It doesn't matter who I've spoken with, what information I've read it still doesn't change the fact that the Town has still passed a By-Law based on what exactly??? The number of cases that went to court??? How about the number that never even got reported???Or how about the number that went to court that probably had no business being there???

There still is the fact that Quispamsis has had more cases of aggressive animal cases than any other local municipality. I find that very odd, considering the majority of the residents in the area are middle to high income families who are very pet oriented. Our "ACO" has no formal training in understanding Animal Behaviour and based upon information provided by him and the number of court cases, the Town bases their decision
to pass this By-Law without consulting any Animal Behaviour Specialists or local Veterinarians for any input.

Atchbe
06-04-2007, 09:16 PM
Quote by MrsBeasley
Gee in one post , you praise my ideas and say I should make a suggestion to the Town Council and then a few posts later you basically hint that I "borrowed" similar ideas from the press and ARL.

MrsBeasley, if you had read my post correctly you would have seen I did praise you for the idea of potential dog owners obtaining "annual dog licences that you have also completed an animal handling/obedience course". I did indeed think that was a good idea. But, I only made one comment on this. I never brought it up again.

I did not in any way insinuate that you had taken this idea of annual dog licences from the media or ARL. It was pretty clear what I was praising you on. I was asking where, other than the media or ARL did you get your info regarding the euthanize on the spot and the other false facts you have presented regarding this new by law.

Quote by MrsBeasley Just a FYI, asside from the initial information I received from a co-worker, I have not read, listened or watched any media coverage on the subject.

hmmm, I don't know what to say. That certainly is not proper research.

People, especially those working in the Pet field should take the time to properly research new by laws correctly.

It would be nice if the people in the pet industry pulled together at a time like this, shared facts and discuss instead of making false accusations and putting others down.

I will leave it at this, there is no sense trying to advise you to contact the proper people to find out what's "really" going on. That's all I asked you to do was to find out the facts instead of defending your wrongful accusations.

This discussion reminds me of how witch hunts had started back in the 1800's.

amethyst, yours is a situation where you should call the Animal control. They can talk to the owners of the dog running at large. The dog should be properly contained at all times and yes, dogs like this can be dangerous. There are laws that owners need to follow.

sanstu
06-04-2007, 09:34 PM
Gee in one post , you praise my ideas and say I should make a suggestion to the Town Council and then a few posts later you basically hint that I "borrowed" similar ideas from the press and ARL. Just a FYI, asside from the initial information I received from a co-worker, I have not read, listened or watched any media coverage on the subject.




It doesn't matter who I've spoken with, what information I've read it still doesn't change the fact that the Town has still passed a By-Law based on what exactly??? The number of cases that went to court??? How about the number that never even got reported???Or how about the number that went to court that probably had no business being there???

There still is the fact that Quispamsis has had more cases of aggressive animal cases than any other local municipality. I find that very odd, considering the majority of the residents in the area are middle to high income families who are very pet oriented. Our "ACO" has no formal training in understanding Animal Behaviour and based upon information provided by him and the number of court cases, the Town bases their decision
to pass this By-Law without consulting any Animal Behaviour Specialists or local Veterinarians for any input.

Mrs. Beasley, there is a leash law in the Town of Quispamsis. If a dog is off leash (in violation of the leash law) and bites a child, adult, or another dog( that is on a leash or on the owners property ), than the offending dog can be euthanized.
The constant bashing of the ACO, by you, regarding his formal training is certainly uncalled for. His years of experience, his dedication to animals and his experience dealing with both difficult dogs and even more difficult owners certainly count for something. Passing this by law did not require any input from the Veterinary Specialists you have touted. This was a legal decision, made by an elected body of government. FYI,being of higher income does not translate into being a responsible dog owner.

Atchbe
06-13-2007, 03:08 PM
MrsBeasley & adorabull, have you read todays paper? they have an article from the Town of Quispamsis of how this new by law was misunderstood.

MrsBeasley
06-14-2007, 11:34 PM
[QUOTE=Atchbe;115177]MrsBeasley & adorabull, have you read todays paper? they have an article from the Town of Quispamsis of how this new by law was misunderstood.

I find it very helpful before getting upset about a situation to discuss with the proper persons first before ranting about it. Although ranting can blow off steam.:rofl: QUOTE]

Unfortunaltely I missed the article, however I'm not surprised that it took the Town of Quispamsis a WHOLE MONTH to come up with an "explanation" as to why their new Bylaw was "misunderstood" (Gee had to wait until the next council meeting???.....how political) .

Like I said before.... that unfortunately got removed (moderated, at my request, I'm not sure...) along with a number of other posts by other folks:

Quote (myself):

"The whole point of a discussion forum is to "discuss" different
views and ideas on certain subjects not to publicly insult one
another for their views on the matter.

Now, had I not been called back into work while preparing my
familys' supper tonight after putting in my 8 hour regular day and
spent the last four hours in surgery assisting to remove foreign
materials from the stomach and intestines from a dog, I would have a
few choice words to say.

Instead, I am sitting here at 11:00 pm and wolfing down my supper
like no tomorrow so I can go to bed and do it all over again
tomorrow. All I can say is: think of me as "narrow minded" and
insult my intelligence all you want, I have been a long standing
member of this forum and the old iSaintJohn who has offered a lot of
information to pet owners on here both publicly and as requested
from members via numerous PM's sent to me.

I could just sit back and let some "misguided" or "partial"
information posted by other members slip by and not say anything,
however I can't consciously allow myself to do that as some people
will believe anything if they don't know any better. A lot of
information I have provided people, I have done so on my own time
for free, normally they would be facing me at work, and paying for
the information I provide or procedures I perform on their animals.

Unfortunately, this thread did not go in the direction it was
initially intended, (to get others opinions on the new by-law).
Instead it became nothing but a bunch of accusations and insults on
certain intelligent, professional people.

So for the two people (I'm sure you know who you are) who feel
the need to insult, I will say I am finished with this thread. Every
member on here at some point has differing opinions from one
another, however there are ways to get one's point across without
having to resort to insulting one another which BTW violates the
iSaintJohn rules."

end quote myself.

So laugh all you want....as of now, I am officially finished with this thread as I refuse to be further insulted by the way this thread has gone (as it wasn't intended to go this way)..it doesn't affect my views on the matter or my profession at all.

Eremda
06-15-2007, 09:42 PM
I guess I understand the concerns of this law. As the owner of a large and powerful dog I am sure that in a bad situation my dog would immediately be considered the agressor.

Frequently smaller dogs which are the ones most ofter loose in their yards run out to yap in his face, while my dog is being walked on leash. If one of those dogs were to become scared and bite him and he were to strike back the outcome would not be good and how would that read in the paper. "Big mean dog injures small cute little dog" and of course that would mean big dog is put down.

The concerns of this law are how fair is it to the big dogs. The "clarification" in todays paper reads more like the administration is backing down somewhat.

Another interesting article in todays paper was by Fred Hazel. He tries really hard to be unbiased but still doesn't quite succeed and his description of the rottie really lets the reader know that he would rather there were no dogs at all to walk on his streets.

Anyhow as the owner of a dog in Saint John I hope our gov't will take a somewhat more fair stance and look at each instance, as is done now.

Atchbe
06-16-2007, 05:11 AM
Mrs Beasley, In no way have you been put down in this thread, if anyone has been putting others down it is yourself. You even put down the ACO and that's worse as he can't defend himself.

If you had listened to me in the first place and called the town of quispamsis they would have told you up front how they would have explained the new by law to you. Just to add, there is a council meeting on June 19 which will be explaining this new by law and answering questions if you want to attend.

"So for the two people (I'm sure you know who you are) who feel
the need to insult, I will say I am finished with this thread. Every
member on here at some point has differing opinions from one
another, however there are ways to get one's point across without
having to resort to insulting one another which BTW violates the
iSaintJohn rules."

Quote by Mrs Beasley. For starters the only way you have been insulted is by trying to get you to call the proper people and get the facts staight...that is not insulting another it is being helpful.
"by the way this thread has gone (as it wasn't intended to go this way)..it doesn't affect my views on the matter or my profession at all."
I don't know what to say, that is sad that the truth is not going to affect your views.

"The whole point of a discussion forum is to "discuss" different
views and ideas on certain subjects not to publicly insult one
another for their views on the matter." Quote by Mrs Beasley.

Yes, I agree, a discussion is talking things through. A discussion should also be open for disagreement and facts should be used to back up claims made by the individual making them.

Atchbe
06-16-2007, 06:57 AM
"I guess I understand the concerns of this law. As the owner of a large and powerful dog I am sure that in a bad situation my dog would immediately be considered the agressor.

Frequently smaller dogs which are the ones most ofter loose in their yards run out to yap in his face, while my dog is being walked on leash. If one of those dogs were to become scared and bite him and he were to strike back the outcome would not be good and how would that read in the paper. "Big mean dog injures small cute little dog" and of course that would mean big dog is put down." Quote by Eremda

Eremda, there are laws that everyone has to follow. If a small dog is not on a leash and provokes a large dog on lead then it's the small dog that was the aggressor. It all depends on who is breaking the laws.

sanstu
06-16-2007, 11:21 AM
It is my opinion that when a person presents themself as a "Professional" in a particular field then that person should be held to a higher level of accountability and their "opinion" becomes a formal judgement by an expert.
There has been a lot of confusion regarding the new dog bylaw in Quispamsis. This confusion could have been cleared up by simply making a phone call to the town office. Instead some members chose to become confrontational in their posts which in turn elicited responses that were less than favourable.
And finally, yes, I am a "new member" to iSaintJohn. New members should be welcomed as that is how a site grows. After all, wern't we all "new members" at one point?

Frog
06-27-2007, 07:16 PM
Not that I agree with the new by-law but at least Quispamsis is doing something.....I called the Town of Rothesay yesterday pertaining to the number of dogs that just freely roam our neighborhood. I can no longer take my dogs out for a walk on a leash as everyone else's dogs are not on one. Rothesay's response was that they do not have an "official" to properly maintain this problem. They will however, contact the Animal Rescue League to check an make sure that they are still doing their patroling in my neighborhood. I have spent over $1000.00 on dog fences, collars, leashes etc to ensure that my dogs cannot get out of my yard, get away from me while we are walking.

I am able to 'email' the offender list to the town but I have been told that the likely hood of anything being done about it is minimal.

sanstu
06-27-2007, 09:50 PM
Not that I agree with the new by-law but at least Quispamsis is doing something.....I called the Town of Rothesay yesterday pertaining to the number of dogs that just freely roam our neighborhood. I can no longer take my dogs out for a walk on a leash as everyone else's dogs are not on one. Rothesay's response was that they do not have an "official" to properly maintain this problem. They will however, contact the Animal Rescue League to check an make sure that they are still doing their patroling in my neighborhood. I have spent over $1000.00 on dog fences, collars, leashes etc to ensure that my dogs cannot get out of my yard, get away from me while we are walking.

I am able to 'email' the offender list to the town but I have been told that the likely hood of anything being done about it is minimal.
Frog, I would suggest you contact the Town of Rothesay, or the mayor, as the town does in fact have by-laws in place. It is up to the town to enforce the by-laws. (Animal Control, by-law #4-98, I believe) Good luck and keep us posted.

Frog
06-28-2007, 08:31 AM
Yes it was the town itself I did call.

In another example, in my area there is to be no livestock permitted on the property, at least according to the by-law in our property agreements that we received when we purchased our home. Only a max of 2 dogs and 2 cats. However around the corner we have a house that has chickens, roosters and turkey's all on their property. We are all on wells and septic here.

The town had been called by various people in the neighborhood however they are still there.

There may be by-laws but unless there is someone in the office that will enforce it, which according to the town, they don't, we are out of luck.

sanstu
06-28-2007, 10:26 AM
Frog, In my opinion you are being given the "Royal Run Around." Contact the town manager and the newspaper.It is the town's responsibility to enforce there own by-laws. They must have a by-law enforcement officer.

adorabull
07-02-2007, 06:01 PM
Yes it was the town itself I did call.

In another example, in my area there is to be no livestock permitted on the property, at least according to the by-law in our property agreements that we received when we purchased our home. Only a max of 2 dogs and 2 cats. However around the corner we have a house that has chickens, roosters and turkey's all on their property. We are all on wells and septic here.

The town had been called by various people in the neighborhood however they are still there.

There may be by-laws but unless there is someone in the office that will enforce it, which according to the town, they don't, we are out of luck.

contact Steve Nason Town of Rothsay.

MrsBeasley
07-02-2007, 08:26 PM
The idea behind this new law is just plain ignorance from people obviously NOT dog owners and a lazyness to have to justify certain cases when the need arise - Just do away with all the damn dogs that bite! What intelligence goes in that?...

I Know I said I was through with this thread but I must say that this was my whole point exactly, and the mayor of Quispamsis has proven that during the last council meeting.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2007/06/20/nb-doglaw.html?ref=rss

sanstu
07-02-2007, 08:53 PM
With over 600 dog related complaints and several attacks last year the Town of Quispamsis went this route. Dog owners need to be responsible for their dogs. That means always being in control of them. Not sometimes, or most of the time but all of the time! I don't understand why people have such a hard time with that. It seems like it is much easier to blame everything and everyone instead of accepting responsibility themselves. Maybe that's why Quispamsis adopted this by-law.

Atchbe
07-03-2007, 05:00 PM
Well said sanstu, this new by law will make owners more responsible. No dog should bite a person under normal circumstances.

One more thing I would like to add, people should be more aware of job their breed was bred for.

Another thing, people with puppies or even rescues should teach their dogs proper bite inhibitation.

adorabull
07-05-2007, 08:56 PM
Well unfortunaly, some people do not care if there dog is taken, some members of society believe animals are disposible. I think they should of hiked the fines up ppftt..50 dollars what the hell is that? id say like 250+ its not enough IMO
The problem that I have is who is deeming theese dogs dangerous? and what credentails do they have? the ACo and 2 counsel members.. ppfft..
the only person Id want deeming my dog dangerous is a Veterinarian or behavior specialist.

with this law only the dogs are being punished IMO, and ultimatly it is up to a judge not the ACO, and depends on certain circumstances... just a bit knee jer if you ask me... but this is an old thread I think it should die now seriously.

sanstu
07-06-2007, 09:38 AM
Well unfortunaly, some people do not care if there dog is taken, some members of society believe animals are disposible. I think they should of hiked the fines up ppftt..50 dollars what the hell is that? id say like 250+ its not enough IMO
The problem that I have is who is deeming theese dogs dangerous? and what credentails do they have? the ACo and 2 counsel members.. ppfft..
the only person Id want deeming my dog dangerous is a Veterinarian or behavior specialist.

with this law only the dogs are being punished IMO, and ultimatly it is up to a judge not the ACO, and depends on certain circumstances... just a bit knee jer if you ask me... but this is an old thread I think it should die now seriously.

I agree with you that the fines should have been increased. That being said I also believe, in the majority of cases involving bites the owners have an idea that their pet is not properly socialized. If a person is not taking the proper steps with their pet prior to an incident than whose to say they will after an incident? I would like to think that dog owners in Quispamsis are being responsible pet owners, however over 600 complaints in Quispamsis says to me there is a problem.

Atchbe
07-06-2007, 12:19 PM
There is a huge problem in Quispamsis with dog bites. Too many careless owners with no clue. I personally find the ACO in that area to be very knowledgable in dog behavior & he is fair.

Also, adorabull how do you know that a Vet will not be helping out?

Not all Vets are very smart when it comes to animal behavior, that comes with experience or if they choose to take extra courses.

adorabull
07-07-2007, 12:22 AM
There is a huge problem in Quispamsis with dog bites. Too many careless owners with no clue. I personally find the ACO in that area to be very knowledgable in dog behavior & he is fair.

Also, adorabull how do you know that a Vet will not be helping out?

Not all Vets are very smart when it comes to animal behavior, that comes with experience or if they choose to take extra courses.

Well than the town counsel meeting was a crock then, I was told by TOWN OFFICALS that the deciding parties would be 2 cousellors, and the ACO, either way there is a 10 day grace period where it can be appealed, and then the desision was to be made buy a judge.

If Dr Blaneys office is helping out Great, but id rather have my dog deemed Dangerous by a Qualified pro, that a grandfathered in pro, I mean no disrespect, but..... politics suck unfortunatly, would you rather have your (in general)disease confermed by a doctor or a 2 yr intern? (thats not a very good comparison, but the only one I can think of at 2am)

there are to may circumstances to just jump the gun, but then again if there is no police report taken, the file is closed.

Trust me I am all about irrisponsible owners thats why I think the fines should be hiked way up, for that reason.

But if a gang of kids are poking a dog with a stick in his own yard behind a fence, and they get nailed.. well...... anyways you get my point.

J.

puppyluv
07-07-2007, 06:22 AM
Just as I am curious, it seems a to be a knee jerk reaction..Why would they not look at the cause, rather than the sympton? Enforce a spay neuter program, obediance training etc.

and Mrs Beasley, I have been one of those people who have emailed you and asked your opinion and you have always been great with it. Thank you!

sanstu
07-07-2007, 07:02 AM
Unfortunate as it is, you cannot make people act responsibly and you cannot make people use common sense. It would be great if every owner took their dog to obedience, and had them leashed when off their property. However, this is not the case. The time to be working with your dog is before there is a problem, not after. It is a sorry state when through this post there has not been any sympathy for the victims (some children) whom have been bitten/attacked by these dogs. Shame, shame, shame!!!

puppyluv
07-07-2007, 07:42 AM
sanstu, I think you are looking at only one side to a problem that has many.
1st, I DO feel for those children, not every single one has asked to be bitten..but lets look at some of the other causes..THE PARENTS and possible lack of training the child not to walk up to an animal they do not know, not to poke, pull hit or kick any animal..not to tease any animal..the parents should NEVER let a child be alone with any animal!
The owners, if their dog has issues, muzzle it. point blank.
An unaltered dog in my opinion causes too many stupid reactions.
My large dog was not abiter when I got him..He will bite now..I blame the bratz in the neighborhood for throwing things teasing etc. But I also take the responsibility if he bites again, I will have to put him down. Note, he has never brought blood..but more nip...from fear..because of those stupid brats that the parents have little or no control over....and the sad thing is, they dont even care!

sanstu
07-07-2007, 08:38 AM
Puppyluv, I happen to agree with what you are saying, to some extent. There are many issues with pet owners that are not being addressed and as I said some things you simply can't make people do. If kids in the neighbourhood are teasing your dog, that is wrong. If you know this is going on and continue to let your dog be exposed to this horrible treatment(by not being outside with your dog) then you are wrong. Some of the problems with dog owners can be corrected fairly easy and some issues are more complex.
It is unfortunate that in Quispam., the problem has escalated to the extent that this by-law was passed.
Too many people buying breeds they have no clue about and not properly training them is a receipe for disaster.

puppyluv
07-07-2007, 08:47 AM
I have taken steps regarding my dog, so that has been dealt with (so far)..I agree, too many people buy a dog with little or no idea of how or what to do with it, the type of excercise, work etc it needs... I dont think it went that far in kv. I think it was a knee jerk reaction..I think if they had enforced (and I mean HUGE fines, jail etc enforced) the bylaws that were originally in place, I think it would be less of an issue..go after the owners...not the animal.

MrsBeasley
07-07-2007, 08:55 AM
There is a huge problem in Quispamsis with dog bites. Too many careless owners with no clue. I personally find the ACO in that area to be very knowledgable in dog behavior & he is fair.

Also, adorabull how do you know that a Vet will not be helping out?

Not all Vets are very smart when it comes to animal behavior, that comes with experience or if they choose to take extra courses.

Maybe not all vets are speciaists in animal behaviour, but I'm sure even the most useless vet in the whole greater Saint John area has more knowledge than council members who are totally ignorant of animal behaviour.

Exprience is not everything when it comes to animal behaviour there is a whole science behind it. The ACO and these two so-called members of council have taken no special courses to make them capable of determining the fate of someone's pet.



Just as I am curious, it seems a to be a knee jerk reaction..Why would they not look at the cause, rather than the sympton? Enforce a spay neuter program, obediance training etc.

and Mrs Beasley, I have been one of those people who have emailed you and asked your opinion and you have always been great with it. Thank you!

Thanks for the support puppyluv, happy to help anytime. You are right it is a knee jerk reaction to a situation....it's a simple, cheap cure to fix a "problem" not a solution to benefit everyone involved.

Unfortunate as it is, you cannot make people act responsibly and you cannot make people use common sense. It would be great if every owner took their dog to obedience, and had them leashed when off their property. However, this is not the case. The time to be working with your dog is before there is a problem, not after. It is a sorry state when through this post there has not been any sympathy for the victims (some children) whom have been bitten/attacked by these dogs. Shame, shame, shame!!!

Even council neglected to use common sense, maybe if dog obedience were more easy accessible to everyone then maybe more people would take ther dogs to it. As it is no one offers obedience training in the summer...therefore bad behaviours get instilled into the puppies "before" they even get the chance by the owners trying to train themselves.

Heck, how many people out there don't even have their animals properly vaccinated...starting the the whole 8,12 16 week puppy vaccination? Owner education is what is needed most...not a law to knock off every dog that bites or has the potential to bite.

Why was there 600 reported cases in Quispamsis??? How many of those were piddly cases that were so and so's poodle nipped some kid over playing with the family chldren and teasing the crap out of it, and how many of those were caused by actual seriously "dangerously" aggressive dogs???

That's like a friend on the SPCA going on 700 calls in their juristiction and only seizing 10 within the last year. What one person perceives as a neglected and abused animal is not always the case according to the law. The same would go for agressive dogs, there are so many different forms of agression:

Social agression: which sets the pecking order in anmals housed in groups.
Territorial aggression: A dog's responce to an intruder on it's territory.
Pain-Induced aggression: occurs in response to induced pain or a fear of pain.
Fear induced agression: Fear of the unknown often confusesd with dominance.
Irritable agression: a result of the animal being hungry, tired or sick.
Maternal agression: Protecting it's young.
Sexual agression: during mating season, usually directed toward it's mate.
Predatory agression: or also "food gathering" agression.

There are also many factors that can influence the severity of the agression:

Genetic Factors(breed differences)- some breeds are more dominant over others.
Environmental Control- certain environmental factors (hunger and crowding for example) can increase agression.
Hormonal control - males are generally more agressive than females with exceptions (a female with young).
and there are more however they are more scientific and more difficult to describe properly.

Based on the definitions of the various types of agression how confident would YOU (the reader) feel putting someone's dog to sleep because it bit someone or something without first determining the reason behind the "attack" or how would you feel if the town ACO and two council members who have no knowledge in animal behaviour has decided your pet was "dangerous" and sentenced it to death as a resut of biting someone, what if it is dying of undiagnosed cancer and was in severe pain and bit as a result?? Is that legitmate reason to put it down? Is protecting it's young reason to put it down??

This is what the town needs to look at, not a cheap, quick fix to eliminate what they feel are "dangerous" dogs.

puppyluv
07-07-2007, 09:12 AM
just a point I was thinking of earlier....also brought up by mrs b..it will be interesting to see what happens when the dog that is "to be put down for biting" isnt some huge scary fanged beast but someones cutsie lil sh-zu, pom, spaniels, beaglet etc..let's see how counsel will face that battle!
Point of the matter...it isnt always big dogs that bite..little once can an do damage...as much as a big dog when it comes to children.

sanstu
07-07-2007, 09:50 AM
Hmmmm.... of the 600 dog complaints in Quispam., I am curious as to how many were repeat offenders? I don't think there were 600 reported bite incidents that would be crazy.
The difference between a large dog attacking you and a small or toy attacking is the injury. You are more likely to have more serious injuries from a large dog. No dog should be left alone with a child/childen for any reason.
It is our responsibility as dog owners to ensure not only the safety of our neighbours around our dogs, but to ensure the safety and well being of our dogs around our neighbours.

MrsBeasley
07-07-2007, 09:55 AM
Just this week we had a certain large breed dog (VERY FEARFUL, BREED SPECIFIC AGRESSIVE and AGRESSIVE of other Dogs) come in for surgery, the owners both stayed until it was sedated as the owner was the only one capable of getting the muzzle on it. Ths is a dog that will growl if you make eye contact. I managed to shave, put an IV catheter in it's front leg and administer general anaesthesia while three people were holding it on the table (male owner included) and the female owner behind me talking to the dog. The dog snarlingand growling in the beginning but soon stopped as I moved very slow and spoke in a calm and reassuring voice.

The next day after major abdominal surgery we were faced with an agressive breed who's fearfully agressive and in pain eho needs to go out to pee. No one else wanted to do anything to the dog until the owner came. In all fairness to the dog as we had no idea how long that would be. I decided to take the dog out to pee, I opened the door and tried to coax the dog out enough so I could get the walking lead over it's head. It kept cowering back into the cage. I stepped back and she came out on her own and tried running off however the IV line only allowed her to go so far and she stopped dead crying from the pain of it pulling, I managed to get the lead on her and with a handfull of cat treats in hand we went outside. I gave her a small bit every so often while outside.

All morning I gave her small treats through the cage door and spoke to her often,until it got to the point I could look into her cage and she would not growl at me. Anyone else forget it! When the female owner showed up to pic her up. I easily managed to get her out of the kennel, put the muzzl on myself and remove her IV catheter with only two people holding onto her lightly.

The reason I could do this is because I understand animal behaviour and worked toward earning a trust in the dog and the dog learned to respect me as well. This dog could have easily bitten me and done some serious damage as she probably weighs as much if not more than I.

MrsBeasley
07-07-2007, 10:09 AM
Hmmmm.... of the 600 dog complaints in Quispam., I am curious as to how many were repeat offenders? I don't think there were 600 reported bite incidents that would be crazy.
The difference between a large dog attacking you and a small or toy attacking is the injury. You are more likely to have more serious injuries from a large dog. No dog should be left alone with a child/childen for any reason.
It is our responsibility as dog owners to ensure not only the safety of our neighbours around our dogs, but to ensure the safety and well being of our dogs around our neighbours.

You're right 600 complaints is outrageous, where ever that number came from, I find it hard to believe they were individual incidents. Also how many of those complaints were legit and not made out of neighborly dislike for someone or their dog.

If there were cases of repeat offenders then maybe the dog should just simply be removed from the household and rehomed with someone who is willing to work with the behaviour that prompted the complaints in the frst place, don't just euthanize the animal for acting on instinct.

sanstu
07-07-2007, 10:25 AM
Mrs. Beasley,the clinic where you are employed is very lucky indeed to have you.
I sincerely hope the owners of this dog have been directed to the appropiate behavioural specialists and are involved in intensive ongoing training for this dog. As someone working in this field your knowledge can be an invaluable tool. All too often dog owners ignore warning signs in their dog until the unthinkable happens and then blame everyone else. Keep up the good work !

Eremda
07-07-2007, 12:20 PM
I can tell you as the owner of a large dog and as I stated earlier I believe that the larger dog would be considered the agressor automatically, just because of size and looks, in a dog on dog fight or confrontation. With a child it would depend on the circumstances whether I would voluntarily surrender my dog to be put down.

You can bet that they would drag him from my dead arms if I did not believe that the situation and bite was his fault in any way. I have children in my home and could not have an agressive dog around them or their friends. That being said our dog is a rescue and with a very uncertain background of abuse and neglect. There are a couple of teenage boys who the dog does not like and do not come in my house for their sake and the dogs. We just do not take chances with him, always warning males who want to pet him that he is only about 99% trustworthy. I watch for the warning signs and if I see any I immediately stop the interaction. I also believe that the more we allow him to meet and greet the better he will become.

I also know from experience that children are not being taught how to approach and greet a dog. Many children run up to us when we are out walking and pet the dog. This is OK with this dog as he loves kids, but a small dog could become scared and bite out of fear. I make my dog sit to greet children and try to tell the kids how to approach properly. I also take this dog anywhere I can around crowds especially.

Just as puppyluv said the small cutsie dog can bite as well and then how much will the cute factor come into play.

I can't believe that many dog complaints in one municipality. I also wonder how that compares to Saint John.

Does anyone have access to this information?

Atchbe
07-11-2007, 07:10 AM
I had a long post, after reading over decided was much too long and boring.

I advise anyone with concerns to call the ACO and ask how this new by law will be implemented. He has been put into a tough position and I'm sure he is trying to deal with this as best he can.

Just to add, Vet's and other animal care professionals should be taking a more active part in preventing dog bites. Behavioral problems should be noted in files, and discussed with owners. A follow up of what the owner has done should be included in the next vet visit. This is not a cure all but it will certainly be an active part of helping the owner.

Dogs can be very stressed at a vet or grooming shop. Some dogs are just stressed and fearful as they pick up on their owners stress and are fine when the owner is gone. Some dogs are not, and this should be noted & discussed.