Sea Dogs fire player...over not signing flag

[daneast]

A junior hockey player has been ousted from the Saint John Sea Dogs after he did not sign a Canadian flag that the team was sending to troops in Afghanistan.
Dave Bouchard — a 20-year-old from Jonquière, Que., who played left wing on the Quebec Major Junior team — said he thought someone else had already signed his name.
But Sea Dogs coach Jacques Beaulieu said he did not accept that explanation and cut him from the team after Saturday's game.
"Morally, we have standards with this hockey team and that's a standard that we believe in," Beaulieu told CBC News Monday.
"I mean, if Dave doesn't believe in it, that's fine. But he won't be part of it. He won't be part of this organization. That's the standard that we set."
Beaulieu said he believes in freedom of expression but added that any player who refused to sign would have been kicked off the team.


Wow..I mean...kicked off ..he said he thought someone else signed it but even if he doesn't support the war in Afganistan...isn't that some form of discrimination? Man what happened to our freedom..

[Nail]

I totally agree with you. Good Ole patriotic coaches..where would we be without you.. There HAD to have been some other hidden agenda there.

[fullprop]

Actually, Bealieau the coach was quoted on a radio interview as saying that his defensive play was suspect and the flag incident was just the icing on the cake. It was something along the lines of no matter how many goals you score if your on the ice for 3 goals a night, and you are shirking your responsability in the defensive end then you are a detriment to the team.
The coach said that Bouchard was not buying into the team concept and was lacking leadership. Because Bouchard was an over ager (20), he was a lot more expendable then a young player. Chances are the sea dogs will trade his rights to someone for a draft pick.

Personally, I see no problem with this. We have an entire generation of athletes that are coddled and it begins when they play elite level sports as teenagers. If more players were held to this sort of accountability, maybe there would never be players like Terrell Owens.

And for those who are gonna say that he wasn't a star...he was tied for team lead with 15 goals...so he wasn't just some 4th line grinder chump.

just my 2 cents!

[daneast]

Good point, however, the coach said that the player was fired was over the failure to sign the flag and a 'moral' decision. (QUOTE-Morally, we have standards with this hockey team and that's a standard that we believe in,"..I mean, if Dave doesn't believe in it, that's fine. But he won't be part of it. He won't be part of this organization. That's the standard that we set." END QUOTE)
That ,my friend, is pushing his own beliefs and morals on his team..he is the one who should be fired. If a player is not holding up his end, has leadership issues etc.. at least fire him on that basis not some self inflicted sense of morality..What if YOUR boss came up to you and said, "here, sign this flag and we will send it to the troops" and you declined, then got fired for it? If the coach and other team members want to do so fine, but that is a personal decision, not a team one. Fire the coach..people that zealous scare me..

[The_Dave]

Whether you support the war or not, you darn well better support our Men and Women in Afghanistan. They are paying the ultimate price and sacrifice. A true Canadian would have signed the flag!!

[kaj27]

Whether you support the war or not, you darn well better support our Men in Afghanistan. They are paying the utimate price and sacrifice. A true Canadian would have signed the flag!!

[removed] straight!

[KaylaGregAlex]

The Sea Dogs released a press release today stating the player was fired over failure to preform on the ice NOT because he wouldn't sign the flag.

[orange]

That's just pathetic.

In the House of Commons vote last week, I think it was 116 to 114 regarding whether or not to continue the Afghanistan military role. So it's not like the mission is a moral certainty.

This kid choosing whether or not to sign the flag is a little different, but he certainly should not be punished if he has qualms about what troops are doing over there.

Innocent civilians are constantly being killed over there, and let's face it, some troops are a little trigger-happy, and some are probably even racist. The military does unfortunately have a tendency to attract overly-aggressive people who want to shoot things up (some have said it attracts psychopaths for this reason as well). Most soldiers are good, but not all... there are even those drug dealers caught recently.

One of the biggest reasons for the invasion was also because the US didn't want companies from Russia and France to sign development deals for the natural gas in Afghanistan. And because the US wants to build a pipeline, to Israel I think.

I still think it has worked out for the better (the invasion, due to overthrowing the Taliban), but let's not pretend like everything done over there is angelic, and for angelic reasons.

[orange]

The Sea Dogs released a press release today stating the player was fired over failure to preform on the ice NOT because he wouldn't sign the flag.

That's just spindoctoring after the fact, because the team realizes what a pathetic action it was.

The coach already said in the CBC interview that if any player didn't sign the flag, even if they were the top draft pick, they would have been kicked off the team.

This kid was even the leading scorer (tied).




Daneast pasted only part of the article:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2006/12/18/nb-hockeyflag.html

"Beaulieu said he believes in freedom of expression but added that any player who refused to sign would have been kicked off the team."

"It wouldn't matter who it would have been. It could have been one of our best players, our first round pick."

"The owners have given me full reins of the hockey team and they allow me to make decisions like that and they totally support me, after I did it, even the some of the teammates said, 'Jacques, it was wrong, we support you and we believe in what you believe in, and it was the right thing to do.'"

[Truthiness Inc]

Hi Thread

Truth is, if you go to watch the seadogs play, you’re going there for entertainment, not wondering what the individual players’ views are on anything..I've paid (work paid actually) to watch them lose too much better and less bloated players..If he doesn’t' want to sign it, it's his choice, we still have the freedom of choice don't we?


Truth scored with the hat trick!




Truthiness Inc

[Cherry Pop]

Is this some sort of joke? Last time i checked this was Canada not Iraq or Afghanistan! We have rights and freedoms in this country, if he doesn't support the war and didn't want to sign the flag than that is his right! Shame on the coach!!!

[Mandi]

I'm young and don't often keep up on news... But isn't the 'war in Iraq' over freedom of some sort? And isn't chosing not to sign the flag a person's given freedom? what the heck?
wow. What a world when you get fired for having different beliefs.

[Nail]

It's doubtful only the coach had his hands in this.

[T-Diddy]

I agree with "The Dave", even if you don't support the war over there, we got to support our men and women serving their country over there! The same men and women who are loosing their lives, are the same men and women who make it possiable for our freedom, the same freedom we use to do such things as too.....oh I don't know.....mabey play hockey. I heard a rumor that it was more a Quebec/Canada thing, that his teamates said he would have signed it if it had been a Quebec flag....booooo to you seadog, your still wet behind the ears! Why don't you enlist for duty over there, mabey that will change your views on what our guys and gals face every day, so guys like you can refuse to sign a flag.

[Rick]

Do you think is minus 23 might have something to do with it..

LW 11 Bouchard, Dave 34 15 8 23 65 -22 8 0 1 0 90 16.70 8 25.00 57 1

[Truthiness Inc]

Hi T-diddy

Can I call you Tdi?

Tdi, using your grossly skewed idea of patriotic, um, loyalty? Why are we fighting a war in Afghanistan when there’s nothing there that we need to be involved in? we have more then enough problems in our own COUNTRY, let alone getting involved in religious wars that have been waging since...well the earth hadn't cooled down quite just yet.

As far as the troops go, that’s' such a cop out, no one is going to say they don’t' support the troops, they're only doing what the government is ordering them to do, go ask one of those troops if they'd rather be home with there families? Or at the very least, dying for something that’s' actually going to matter, or make a difference in peoples lives, or the lives of their countrymen?

...One more thing about hockey...if we actually had some kinda nuclear winter, Canadians could play hockey 365 days a year!! WOO HOO!!!! So when all those Yankees ask you "do you guys ever have summer up there?" you can tell them " no, i'm a Canadian!" *queue hockey night in Canada theme*



Truth is in the hoooousee.


Truthiness Inc

[T-Diddy]

Truthiness...you've only back up my point when you say "there only doing what the goverment is ordering them to do, go ask one of those troops if they'd rather be home with their families? Or at the very least dying for something that is going to matter." Don't forget our mission there has changed from that of peackeeping. I can tell from your post that you have never had a loved one serve in a war zone, or you wouldn't be defending someone for not signing their name on our countries flag to support the men and women who for the most part probabbly don't believe that they should be there either!. I too don't believe that our troops should be over there, however while they are there they have my full support and gratitude.......I AM CANADIAN!

[Mandi]

I dissagree with the fact that he was fired for not signing the flag. Whatever his reasons or beliefs, they are his own, and he has his God given right to them and to use them as he sees fit. We are all allowed our own opinions, and if he didn't want to do something doesn't make him right, but it is his right to decide so.
By saying that you dissagree with the coach in his decision to fire the player does not mean that you think the player was right in his actions (or lack there of) It simply means it is wrong to fire someone on a basis of their belief system being different in any way.
I support our troops! And we all should. I know 3 people touring over there right now, and though I don't know the specifics of what they're actually doing, I know they want to come home. :( I am Canadian (or so the tattoo on my butt says.) and I love our country , our level of freedom, and expression, and I love that we have brave men and women who actually care enough to enlist in the army. But I don't think that firing someone on predudicious grounds is something that as Canadians we should stand for.

[daneast]

Well, well...t-diddy..how wrong you are...both world wars were in an effort to stop a madman from taking over the world..yes the WHOLE friggin world. I bet any Canadian will stand up and fight to defend our land, families etc..but this is not what is going on. We were peace keepers trying to improve relations between fighting factions, now we are just American lackeys trying to impose by force our will and beliefs on another country. And it seems we never learn..Vietnam, now Iraq and Afganistan. Instead of the gov voting on it ,how about a national referendum..lets see how many Canadians want our boys and girls out of there? Also, all those men and women who died fighting for freedom in those wars died for the RIGHT of every Canadian to not sign a flag if they so choose(not supposed to deface it anyway), to speak out against what they see as wrong, to voice an opinion without persecution..so if your a REAL Canadian you will support that player, he is entitled to believe what he wants whether it is the war, Quebec seperating....whatever without fear..that is what freedom is...get it?

[daneast]

The etiquette for handling the flag, as published by Heritage Canada and the DN Directory of History and Heritage (DHH) states:
1. The national flag of Canada should be displayed only in a manner befitting this important national symbol. It should not be subjected to indignity or displayed in a position inferior to any other flag or ensign;
2. The national flag shall not be used as a cover for a box, table, desk, podium or other object, carried flat or horizontally. It should always be aloft and free, nor shall it be draped except on a closed casket. It should not be signed or marked in any way;
3. When the national flag is being hoisted or lowered at a defence establishment, or when it is carried past in a parade or review, all military personnel within view shall halt, face the flag and pay compliments
4. When in civilian clothing personnel should face the flag, remove their hats as required and remain silent

End of story...If the coach is so patriotic,why is he defacing our national emblem? fire the coach..bring the kid back.
Let us not let a coach enforce his beliefs on a 20 year old kid....email your response to:
David Turk - Executive Director of the Sea Dogs;
davidturk@saintjohnseadogs.com (davidturk@saintjohnseadogs.com)

[Truthiness Inc]

[removed as there was no common sense for this post]

[daneast]

Seems like the QMJ is "investigating" the issue, after all the negative response and outrage it prompted across this great country of ours...oooh raaa ! ...Haven't heard from Tdi since yesterday..hmmm

[trinity]

We have an employee who is from U.A.E., and several in other departments who are from the Middle East and Asian countries as well. Should we fire them if they don't support the war effort? This past November, our employer made poppies available for us and strongly encouraged the wearing of them. Our employees from Asia and the Middle East for the most part refused to wear them, it isn't part of THEIR belief system and they still work for us.
Also, we all KNOW the soldiers over there would have DEFINITELY noticed the absence of a signature from a minor player in an even more minor league. I mean, we all knew who Dave Bouchard was before this happened,right? He's that children's author from Saskatchewan isn't he? Or isn't he the 6 ft 5 NCAA football player from Cap de la madelaine? Nope, I think he's that skier from Vermont.

[tag]

getting back to the team rules, morals, guidelines - whatever - freedom of choice really has nothing to do with it.
I'm guessing you all know that it is "policy" in the juniors, minors, and majors to wear a suit when arriving to and leaving the arena. Not doing so can result in penalties, suspension, or release.
So if one of the players decided he wanted to wear cut-offs instead, would you say that it is "his choice"?
No, he knew the policies, it is NOT his choice.
I cannot decide to raise the legal alcohol limit, or go cook my own food in a restaurant, change the rules of the RCMP because I want to, not sign a cheque and expect it to be cashed.... etc etc.
The rules are in place and should not be altered for individuals.
It probably IS covering the team butt to say he was "not" released because of his actions, .... and if he truly thought someone else had signed for him, then a mistake has prolly been made.
But I think that the team is using this action as a good reason to release a player they have wanted to, but did not have good enough reasons.
BTW, notice I have used no curse words in this post..... there are rules against it.
just my humble opinion

[Truthiness Inc]

Hi Tag

So can you find something that says, signing your name is part of the player’s contract? I'll wait...go ahead.



Truth is that your final answer.




Truthiness Inc

[Mandi]

I find it so hard to believe that 'you must sign any and all flags that are placed before you' in in his contract anywhere. I hate when people use examples that make no sense at all.

[Nail]

Tag, i do not agree with those examples. I'm sure it doesnt say "Sign all Paraphernalia as a team or you'll be fired" on their signed contract. A more accurate parallel would be -not signing a get well card for your boss- or something. This is truly a pathetic story on both the coach's AND players' part.

A question about this story...was there a rejection spectacle made by the unsigning player or did the coach later look at the flag and notice he didn't sign?

I just shake my head...

[tag]

It also probably does not state specifically that he cannot be drunk in public, get in fights outside the rink, be part of a gang, or sell fake Prada bags, but it DOES have a code of Conduct and Ethics, every team does.
Now if the team policy is to "support the troops", if not the war, then his choice (if all this actually happened like this) was to be part of the team or not.
Do you think it was right for the head coach of the Edmonton Oilers to be fined for stating his opinion of the officials?
He did, was fined, against code of conduct.
A minor league coach was so disgusted with his teams' play he made them ride 4 hours home on the bus, in their uniforms.
He was punished.
This player is against team policy, he is punished. Not a big deal in the world.... not earth shattering...... against policy=punishment.
Although I agree, if he WAS released for this reason, it is too severe.

[Nail]

People are assuming that by not signing, he is stating an opinion. He says later, "I thought someone else signed for me." This isn't one of those cases where he "let his opinion fly" like Mel Gibson or the more recent "Cosmo Kramer", there are too many little details suggesting that this whole story is an idiotic drama-fest.

[The_Dave]

Betcha Don Cherry does a bit about this and I betcha he is not in favour of the kid.

[Truthiness Inc]

Hi Tag


Actually, a contract would probably include all those things, Prada included, but a passage stating “you must support our troops and war”, I can almost guarantee so that’s'…99.99% , guarantee, that it's not mentioned, and that the coach brought in, HIS personal beliefs, but anything else you mentioned has nothing to do with the original post...but you flip flop so much, I'm not actually sure what you’re saying anymore, and THAT coming from me will probably have most of Isaintjohn and the Admins laughing themselves stupid!

But since Nail found out that he would have signed,had he known about it, helps to give more credibility that it was a just a team decision to get rid of the guy.



Truth is as truth does, that’s what mamma always says.


Truthiness Inc

[tag]

I'll try in simple words, Truth.
no flip-flopping
team policy, support troops - players does not support team policy
you didn't like random examples, nor hockey examples, so try this (and I am not being a smart alek with this).....
my opinion..... the team has a policy, and (the report states) the player didn't sign, therefore they used him not supporting policy to release him
sticking strictly to the team issue.... what do you think would have happened the next time this player went into the locker room and the other players started asking him why he didn't sign?

[Truthiness Inc]

Hi Tag

If it were me, and let’s assume, he didn’t think someone was going to sign his name for him, and that, he chose not too of his own free will, did you follow that? So, now, I'm the guy, and someone asks me "why did you not sign the flag in support of the troops?"
My first reaction would be "why are you asking me in a locker room full of naked guys? You sicko perv!?"
My second question would be "why not ask me in a one on one situation, since we may have different views on the current war, as well as our administration, now get so clothes on, Johnson"

Not sure what that will answer for you, but at least I humored you.


Truth: uncut Vol III




Truthiness Inc

[tag]

actually you didn't humor me.
I asked a straight question and you gave the usual sarcasm that we all know you do.
An answer showing at least a little intelligence might have been nice.

I was asking about the team.
If you have ever been a part of a team, you know team chemistry, morale and spirit are important.

I do agree with you, and stated earlier, that all of this discussion depends on IF it happened like this.
But other than that...... I replied, my examples were not liked, so I tried hockey examples, no go, tried direct short words...... still uh-uh.
Please feel free to disagree..... prove me wrong with discussion and valid points, and I will readily submit if I am wrong, I am not trying to convert or brow beat someone to my opinion. I could also use sarcsam and dry wit to make posts but generally find it more resectful just to stick to the topic.
Anywho, make your reply, princess, and have a good night
I've got a hockey pool to win

[Mandi]

It also probably does not state specifically that he cannot be drunk in public, get in fights outside the rink, be part of a gang, or sell fake Prada bags,
um sweetheart... those things are /illegal/ .

[jdcb]

Whether you support the war or not, you darn well better support our Men and Women in Afghanistan. They are paying the ultimate price and sacrifice.

Right on, agree with you there 100%. It's wasn't an issue of politics or whether or not you believe in the war, it's about the troops themselves. Some people say that they could just leave, but if your sent overseas and you run away from it or try to leave because of orders to an active duty area, isn't that treason in regards to war?

Hi T-diddy

Can I call you Tdi?

Tdi, using your grossly skewed idea of patriotic, um, loyalty? Why are we fighting a war in Afghanistan when there’s nothing there that we need to be involved in? we have more then enough problems in our own COUNTRY, let alone getting involved in religious wars that have been waging since...well the earth hadn't cooled down quite just yet.

As far as the troops go, that’s' such a cop out, no one is going to say they don’t' support the troops, they're only doing what the government is ordering them to do, go ask one of those troops if they'd rather be home with there families? Or at the very least, dying for something that’s' actually going to matter, or make a difference in peoples lives, or the lives of their countrymen?

...One more thing about hockey...if we actually had some kinda nuclear winter, Canadians could play hockey 365 days a year!! WOO HOO!!!! So when all those Yankees ask you "do you guys ever have summer up there?" you can tell them "hell no, i'm a Canadian!" *queue hockey night in Canada theme*



Truth is in the hoooousee.


Truthiness Inc

I'm sorry, was there a counter argument in there?

I dissagree with the fact that he was fired for not signing the flag. Whatever his reasons or beliefs, they are his own, and he has his God given right to them and to use them as he sees fit.

I agree with this too, and I think that firing him over this was a bit much. However, it was also a team activity, there is no 'i' in team...

I am Canadian (or so the tattoo on my butt says.)

Pic?

both world wars were in an effort to stop a madman from taking over the world..yes the WHOLE friggin world.

Actually, was world war 1 not fought over the escalation the ensued following the assassination of Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand?

It should not be signed or marked in any way;
If the coach is so patriotic,why is he defacing our national emblem? fire the coach..bring the kid back.

Very interesting point there...

Hi Tdi!

Did you read your response to me?

You say I prove your point, what ever it was? Then you say something about...I could never understand because, I don't have anyone who is currently fighting in Afghanistan...that blanket statement alone shows your type of air tight logic..

*holding up my house keys and wiggling them in Tdi's face*

Look at them, look ewww..The sounds they make, and look at how sparkly they are!!...here, you play with my keys little guy, you deserve it, YES YOU DO, yes you do....

Nation, not since sesame street's Grover's, near and far debacle, have I seen such a gross display of what ever the hell Tdi said, but, he's entitled to his facts, even if he did pull them out of his a-------...you know the orifice i'm referring to! At least when i read his posts, they make me laugh, so does people getting hit by cars, but you see my point.


Truthiness Inc

So, do you?

All i see in this post is something about jingling keys, I almost want to remove it...

So can you find something that says, signing your name is part of the player’s contract? I'll wait...go ahead.

There is no I in team. (I'll even spell it out for you T - E - A - M see, no I) It is a responsibility as a team member to participate in the team activities. They decided to do this, and he pulled out of the team, they just made sure he kept going...




Ok, this post was fun to make... Now in closing, assuming he refused to sign, the right to refuse to sign is a right that the soldiers fight for him to have. If he forgot/thought someone else signed for him, simple mistake, bring him upstairs and have him sign it before it's mailed off. But making him leave the team over it is kinda over the limit. Some sort of penalty maybe, but not an oust. And I also believe the "released for other reasons" is posturing and propaganda...

[daneast]

For Tag:

It is very simple Tag, according to your thinking, if the coach decided that supporting Islam was a team policy..all the team should also? I don't follow your logic. If an individual decides to support or not support a war, that is a personal belief, it has nothing to do with a "team". A team works together to achieve a common goal..in this case win hockey games...not a war. If a player is not doing his job, disrupts practices etc..that is one thing ..fire him,but to come out and say" "it is moraly wrong" like the coach did is 100% wrong. There is not a sport I know of where you have to support troops..that is a personal decision. The kid did not come out and bad mouth the war, troops ,anything..never would of came up IF not for the over-zealous COACH..is that simple enough for you?

[tag]

agreeing with most of your points, Daneast.
although not sure where "supporting Islam" came from.... my opinion is Support the troopps if not the war.
And we are forgetting other points here. The team has a general manager, a team president, an owner, many other areas I am sure I can't think of. The coach alone, as far as I know, cannot make the decisions we are talking about, by himself.

[tag]

my thoughts were with the principle of "team policy", and if a player joins a team and dis-agrees with the team policy, he should not be there

[daneast]

:confused: My point on Islam was this;if the coach was Islamic and supported his "troops", can he force the team to sign an Islamic flag..no of course not...just because it is a Canadian flag makes no difference..A team cannot put a policy in place that forces him or her to sign a Canadian flag for any reason...troops or not. As far as I know you sign a contract..break it and your gone...if you do not perform your duties..your gone..as for the rest it is based on common sense..and legalities ..drugs (illegal) etc.. but forcing someone to support a war is not common sense, or policy, just a personal belief. All the coach had to do was fire him for non-performance, as that is what he now says was the issue, and leave morality out of it. You keep mentioning supporting the troops...if you really want to support them, tell your local MLA or MP that you want them home..best support there is...that's my belief..That's called freedom.:biggrin:

[fullprop]

Actualy the coach and gm are one and the same with the Sea dogs.