Call me callous

[puppyluv]

but I don't care. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/12/11/rudolph.prison.ap/index.html

[notfarnow]

So, you agree with the use of torture? That's what a Supermax prison is.

[puppyluv]

Yup.
He killed and hurt allot of people.
He DESERVES to be there.
too bad so sad.

[kb]

geeezzzz we need more of these and some in canada . so put me in the agree column . this guy really didn't worry about anyone else when he was doing the bombing

[tred816]

I can't help but agree puppyluv. I don't believe in torture, but I believe you do the crime you do the time...

the last thing I could possibly do is feel pity on this man who hurt so many people.

Perhaps if they were tearing off his fingernails or using torture chambers, but wha wah wah poor me, I'm in jail for a crime I admit to committing and I'm gonna cry over being locked up in a cage??? come on!

[user5624]

He's complaining about isolation... he didn't play too well with others. He should stay there I think.

[Mandi]

IF you commit the crime ie you admit it / there is not a possible way you did not do it, then, Suck it Up! Seriously. When you can kill someone then ocmplain about your state of living.... it's sickening.

[notfarnow]

He's not arguing that he shouldn't be in prison. I don't think anyone is saying that, so it's not a "do the crime, do the time issue"

The issue is, are Supermax prisons a form of torture? I think it is, and I'm against torture. Sensory deprivation is torture.

[Mandi]

I would consider blowing body parts off of other people into tiny bits torture of some device. -shrug- call me crazy.
Maybe it is torture, maybe it's not, but that's just one 'flaw' in the justice system that I can actually feel good about. This man has nothing to do but to think about the lives he's ruined. And now his is in a sore state. How absolutely tragic.

[notfarnow]

So, you think torture is ok? What about breaking someone's fingers for theft? Just wonering where you draw the line?

[Mandi]

I draw the line at people KNOWING full well that if they're bad, they're going to end up in solitary confinement... breaking fingers for theft, don't be ridiculous.
Jail is not a butterfly rainbow happy place, especially not when you do a crime warrenting being in a maxium security prison, If you do a crime that heinous, then I am of the opinion that you signed yourself up and deserve what you get. I feel little sympathy for this man who knowingly took other peoples lives.
Murder =/= theft.

[puppyluv]

He's not arguing that he shouldn't be in prison. I don't think anyone is saying that, so it's not a "do the crime, do the time issue"

The issue is, are Supermax prisons a form of torture? I think it is, and I'm against torture. Sensory deprivation is torture.

don't you think he hsa sensory depreived the people of the familiys & friends that were affected by his attack? What about the people that still re-live it all the time?. that was HIS doing...HIS fault...and HIS punishment is just. It isn't like he was innocent.

yeah. let the creep be depreived..Maybe it will deter a few people around the world who read it from doing any more crimes.

[notfarnow]

I'm not debating whether or not what he did was evil and depraved... it certainly was. What I'm saying is that as a society, we need act morally. This means even acting morally when we are dealing with others who DON'T.

Torture is never OK.

Too bad you don't agree.

[kaj27]

Torture would be allowing ourselves to be criminal. What lesson is learned? We can suppress the evil by scaring them? Thats not trust thats fear.

People like this need help, he may be mentally unstable. Unable to feel guilt or remorse. Who knows! Everyone always screams "cook em" or "let God sort em out" That is taking the easy way out. Why don't we try to fix the horse and not just shoot it.

[notfarnow]

Torture would be allowing ourselves to be criminal. What lesson is learned? We can suppress the evil by scaring them? Thats not trust thats fear.

People like this need help, he may be mentally unstable. Unable to feel guilt or remorse. Who knows! Everyone always screams "cook em" or "let God sort em out" That is taking the easy way out. Why don't we try to fix the horse and not just shoot it.

Thank you! I was feeling like I was alone on this.

I'm not even sure someone like this can be "fixed" or redeemed. Even then, I think we need to consider the dignity and sanctity of human life... even if this criminal hasn't.

[Mandi]

Just curious. How would you suggest these people be dealt with? Why don't we take care of all their living expenses for the rest of their lives. Oh yeah... that's what is happening now.

[notfarnow]

Just curious. How would you suggest these people be dealt with? Why don't we take care of all their living expenses for the rest of their lives. Oh yeah... that's what is happening now.

Not sure I understand your question.

I have no problem with them being in prison for life, if that's what a judge or jury decided is the best recourse.

What I take issue with are the conditions in SuperMax prisons.
Read bout them, and I think you will agree:

http://www.supermaxed.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermax

http://www.prisoncentral.org/prisoncentral/Supermax.htm

[daneast]

So, sensory deprevation is the "term" now? Rehabilatation?...why? The poor man...lets give him a tv, counselling, exercise, books to read, and make him fell loved and wanted.. come on...This guy killed and maimed innocent people without so much as a twitch of remorse and stated he would do it again...he is lucky to be in a lighted room if you ask me..this is what needs to be done with these sociopaths...they cannot be rehabilitated and will use every advantage given to their end IE: exercise to get stronger, use privilages to plan an escape or assualt etc.. get a lawyer and appeal etc...let him die a lonely, depraved death...

[notfarnow]

So to clarify, you think it's OK to use torture in a prison system?

[daneast]

I think you are using this to try and prove a point. Max prisons are for those individuals who pose a threat for ALL those around them. He has been proven in court and by his own admission to have killed and stated he would do so again. He is not being physically tortured. He is locked up so he cannot be a danger to society and staff, other inmates etc... He cannot be put in with other inmates, he cannot be allowed any chance, slim or not, to escape...so, climb down off your human rights pedestal...This person has no concious, no empathy or remorse. All he would do is exploit any "rights" to further his own cause. He gave up all his rights the moment he injured others and took lives.

[Mandi]

I would not consider it torture. That in itself is debatable. But I do not disagree with anything that happens in prisons to guilty men / women who have stolen other peoples babies from this planet.

[orange]

I think he should actually feel lucky he's protected by the cage :). Sensory deprivation would be better than becoming the "girlfriend" of some other prisoner :eek:.

I think this guy deserves it. But for any prisoner that my be eventually released, I can see it making them worse. Another issue is of innocent people being thrown in there... Richard Jewel eventually got his name cleared, but he was accused of the bombing at first.

[notfarnow]

Daneast, I invite you to follow the links I provided, and read up about SuperMax prisons.

It is not simply a question of protecting others from these inmates, it's about the use of sensory deprivation as a form of punishment.

I challenge you to try to look past the specific crimes they may have committed, and to look at this from the perspective of how we as a society respect the basic dignity of all human beings... even those who have committed evil and depraved acts.

So far, we have:
6 for torture
2 against

[Nail]

Some people who feel remorse for killing people MAY call it torture. For Example: "Oh God, i killed those people...i feel horrible. This is torture"...etc..he's lucky it's just a cage.

[Truthiness Inc]

Hi Thread,

Since this person has no chance of being rehabilitated, why not remove him from the planet all together, saves a lot of money, especially at Xmas?


I'm doing 4 life sentences of truth.




Truthiness Inc

[daneast]

notfarnow, I invite you to look at: http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/11/14/supermax.messages/

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5065995,00.html

and all the pictures and speak with all the loved ones of all the DEAD people these sociopaths leave in thier wake.

You seem to think they are human..only in form my friend. Outside of that they lack all that makes us human...sympathy, empathy, a concious, right from wrong.etc..What would you have us do with them? Throw them into a "hotel" with bars for the rest of thier lives? give them "stimulation" so they don't get "sensory depravation". Treat them like a human being when they obviously are not. As I stated previously, any and all "human" privileges given them would be taken advantage of for personal gain...they don;t want to watch tv..it is a source of information or a weapon..they want to exercise so they are stronger more agile etc..than any opponent. They don't feel or think like you or I, any leniency given will be used as an advantage...you cannot treat them like a normal guy or women who just messed up..they are a mess.

[notfarnow]

So then why not just execute them?

[Truthiness Inc]

Hi Thread

Why not have real life versions of Survivor/UFC? HBO would sign it in a heart beat, or Pay Per View! The winner can get a chance to be put back into society as a hole, or they can choose to remain and defend their championship? We could have commentators and everything, i mean Steven Seagul and Carrot Top really need the work?



Enjoy a bite of my Yule time truth, mmmmm, sooo moist.


Truthiness Inc

[orange]

Why not have real life versions of Survivor/UFC? HBO would sign it in a heart beat, or Pay Per View! The winner can get a chance to be put back into society as a hole, or they can choose to remain and defend their championship?

That's only a step away from the movie "The Running Man" with Ahnold :)

I think that movie does provide a good social commentary on the rights of prisoners (I do agree that even prisoners have some rights).

[Truthiness Inc]

Hi Orange

Orange, I believe the rights should be directly correlated to the crime, murder is not the same as a B&E, so the person doing time for the B&E should be given more freedom, freedom in the sense that they're still locked up, and actually given the chance for rehabilitation.



Truth, and i'm a 3 strike offender.



Truthiness Inc

[The_Dave]

They should have just gassd or hung him and say the taxpayers money. As for him being tortured, to bad so sad, he tortured families by killing their loved ones, and maiming others!! and for what?? What was his reason.

If I ran the prisons, it would be bread and water and 23 and half hours of darkness a day, for a guy like this. That would be just a start.

nottofarnow, I bet you would change your opinion if it was your Mom or Dad or sister or brother or husband or wife who was killed or maimed by this animal.

[daneast]

If a murderer like him confesses to it and all evidence indicates it is true and he says he would do it again...then yes execute him.

[The_Dave]

Also he is ONLY writing to that newspapaer for attention. This is what this kind of person does to feel important. He is torturing the families of the victims by writing to the newspaper. If he has if sooooooo bad, than he should just kill himself and get it over with.

Daneast, I thought what you said earlier was great "Human rights pedestal"

nottofarnow, if you are so concerned about society, start looking after starving babies or the elderly, someone who really could use it and appreciate it. Stop ranting about people who DESERVE what they get, you are contributing to what they really want. ATTENTION

[notfarnow]

nottofarnow, I bet you would change your opinion if it was your Mom or Dad or sister or brother or husband or wife who was killed or maimed by this animal.

I sure hope not.

Any sense of satisfaction wrought by revenge is a hollow one. If someone is hurt or killed on my bahalf, I gain nothing. In fact, I lose something.

Part of my humanity would be lost. I wouldn't want my cravings for revenge to supercede my respect for the dignity of human life.

[Truthiness Inc]

notfarnow


Eye for an eye is biblical, but taking that out of the equation.

Right now, no one i know is in any harm, no one i know has died at the hands of someone else, with that being said, i KNOW if someone hurt someone i love, i would remove that person from the earth, i'm saying that not out of hate or feeling of revenge, i say that because fair is fair.


"You’re nothing but an animal!
*laughing* we are all animals, m'lady."
~Legend~


Truthiness Inc

[Mandi]

Dignity of human life.... What about the ones who lose their mommies and daddies to murderers. The little ones forced to live on the streets, in orphanages, with reletives where they don't feel wanted. Those are the vicitms I worry about, but when you say a murderer is a victim, I can't agree. In any sense of the word. I personally think he deserves worse.
I heard, and don't remember where it was. That there is a prison that makes the inmates wear pink jump suits and underwear. They have TV but they only have certain chanels, things like that make me smile. :) As opposed to , free food, dignified clothing, free cable ( FFS I just got cable for the first time in the last 9 years....) arts and crafts, work out equipment, (let's make the men who are in there for battering their wives nice and strong now. It is our obligation to be sure. -gag-) And nice hot showers. I can't even have a nice hot shower... My water heater is shared with our neighbors down stairs.
That we, are all all paying for.
I think the moment that you take a life, you should have nothing.... nothing. Privledges are that. A privledge, and to just give them to people who frankly don't deserve them sickens me.
This guy must have a pen and paper, why doesn't he draw some pretty pictures of outside. Might be more fulfilling than moaning about how horrible he is treated.

[The_Dave]

notfarnow,
I hope to god that you never lose anyone in this manner but if you did, I know you would think differently.

[notfarnow]

notfarnow, . I hope to god that you never lose anyone in this manner but if you did, I know you would think differently.

Yes, I suppose you know me so well.

How do you know who I have lost, and how I lost them?

Don't make so many assumptions,

[The_Dave]

Mandi, that prison where they wear pink jumpsuits is in Arizona. They have brought back the old chain gangs there too, where workers actually go out chained together and work on roads and such, also the channels they get are the weather channels. The part I like the best is so the warden would not have a discrimination lawsuit brought against him, he included the women in their own chain gangs also. They also get all the yard exercise they want in 110 to 120 degree fahrenheit.They also sleep in tents, no air conditioning.

Now there is a warden who is really making the criminals pay and all within the laws of the system. Good for him.

[The_Dave]

nottofarnow, temper temper. I don't drag my foot all that much.

[orange]

Yes, I suppose you know me so well.

How do you know who I have lost, and how I lost them?

Don't make so many assumptions

I'd have to lend support to notfarnow here. I disagree with him somewhat, in that I don't think Eric Rudolph's treatment is out of line, but I think notfarnow has made a thoughtful analysis of that side of the debate.

I go back to the movie "The Running Man" as an example that prisoners do have some rights. I don't think the SuperMax crosses the line for Eric Rudolph. But I think some treatment would, and that seems to be notfarnow's key argument.

[Mandi]

Mandi, that prison where they wear pink jumpsuits is in Arizona. They have brought back the old chain gangs there too, where workers actually go out chained together and work on roads and such, also the channels they get are the weather channels. The part I like the best is so the warden would not have a discrimination lawsuit brought against him, he included the women in their own chain gangs also. They also get all the yard exercise they want in 110 to 120 degree fahrenheit.They also sleep in tents, no air conditioning.

Now there is a warden who is really making the criminals pay and all within the laws of the system. Good for him.

I LOVE it. That is perfect. That is how all prisons should be run, in my opinion. They should have to work for their food like the rest of us.

[Mandi]

Notfarnow, I can respect you opinion for what it is. And it does some good having people like you who are obviously empathetic in this world, to every form of life. I just can't bring myself to think of a mass murderer as a human being. I have different views on the treatment of different crimes, and to me this one seems fitting.
But no one should tell you you're wrong for having an opinion, only state their own.
I find discussions like this facinating. it is interesting to me to see what others in this area think.

[daneast]

http://www.gazette.com/db_images/796_ericr.jpg
Eric Rudolph mocks the prosecutors, judge and victims of his 1998 bombing of an abortion clinic.


What has to be remembered is the TYPE of criminal we are dealing with in a supermax prison. Either they have committed a very henious act or have been "boosted" from other prisons because of escape attempts, murder..etc. These arethe ultimate of the worst. They are so dangerous it is hard for us to comprehend. Here is a blip from his trial: Rudolph sent The Gazette a 16-page story he said was a “satire” based on his sentencing in Birmingham in July 2005.:
In it, he mocks the prosecutors, judge and victims of his 1998 bombing of the New Woman All Women clinic, which killed off-duty policeman Robert Sanderson and maimed nurse Emily Lyons.
Lyons was struck by flying nails and shrapnel, which tore out one of her eyes. She has had 22 surgeries since 1998.

In a narrative dripping with sarcasm, Rudolph wrote that he “never learned that there is no freedom more dear to women than the right to dispose of their own unwanted children.”
He read a statement saying he bombed two abortion clinics because “abortion is murder, and because it is murder I believe deadly force is needed to stop it.”
The attack at the Olympics in 1996, he said, was meant to “confound, anger and embarrass” the government for sanctioning abortion.He concluded his statement by saying, “The talking heads on the news opine that I am ‘finished,’ that I will languish broken and unloved in the bowels of some Supermax, but I say to you people that by the grace of God I am still here — a little bloodied, but emphatically unbowed.”

So, They are dangerous because of they way they are, not just what they have done. They are coldblooded, calculating remorseless animals who think only of satisfying their own needs and desires at the expense of anyone and all else except thier own self preservation. They can never be let out. Ask Mr Rudolph what he wishes, his life or torture..what ever the answer, grant it.

[Truthiness Inc]

[Mod edit. DO NOT post derogatory things regarding an iSJ member again.]

[notfarnow]

The Dave, I apologize for snapping at you.

My point here is that it's too easy to taint our perspective with this particular case.

Just because we have a natural inclination towards revenge, does not mean we ought to pursue that avenue. Victims, and family members of victims, often express very clearly that they are not able to move on with their lives until they forgive. Feeding into our natural desire for revenge only leads us to obsess about the perpetrator. It is not healthy, or beneficial. It robs us of our humanity... I truly believe that.

As a society, we do not promote revenge. It doesn't matter if the revenge is from an individual, or by the state. Revenge is wrong, and using torture for revenge is wrong.

[The_Dave]

Thank You and I agree with what you just posted, but some where, some how these people have to pay. We should not be babying them in soft prisons. They have taken someone's life away and destroyed others because of their actions. They do not deserve to have a place on this planet. We law abiding, hard working, family raising and loving citizens deserve to be safe in this world. If that means alienating or disposing of all the people who are not able to be rehabilatated, so be it. I would hate to lose a loved one to a senseless selfish act. I am sorry but revenge sometimes is sweet. I believe we should go back to the ways of the bible. An eye for an eye.

[Nail]

I'm sorry...but im not sure how you are thinking. If someone in Supermax feels tortured by being kept in a cell, that is truly an unfortunate event...They new what their crimes would get them. If you walked out of a store with stolen goods under your shirt and are picked up by security, would the penalty be revenge? You know what you deserve! Pay for it to avoid the consequences! DUH...pretty simple folks.

Mayhap we should hear more from this lunatic in Supermax to hear exactly what he thins he should deserve. After he requests wine and caviar we can laugh at him and slap him back in solitary! If he was seen just before he detonated that bomb, he would have been shot and killed- ON THE SPOT- in hopes to save human life. The way i look at it, he might as well be dead right now...so a little torture ain't so bad.

[Ice97]

I don't really think it's sensory deprevation anyways. He's in his cell most of the day.....but he can still read and the cell most likely has a window. Plus it's what he and other people like him deserve. I think they need the death penalty so people like him can quit getting a free ride. My 2 cents....nothing more